Sighting in/Patterning Help

[jleyring]

Recently I went out with a friend who finally broke down and bought an AR. For Christmas he went to BassPro and bought himself a Black Rain Ordnance SPEC-15. It has a 1:8 twist. He didn't want to go with a "cheap" AR but also didn't want to break the bank. He bought a Vortex Strike Eagle 3-18x44 SFP scope and Burris PEPR mount. He not knowing much about them, asked for some help getting it setup and sighted in. I helped him get it mounted up and we went out to BLM land to get it sighted in. I brought my table and bags and we put the target only 25yds out. He sat down and tried to dial it in at close range first. It took more shots then I would've figured but finally we got it hitting close to center. We then took it out to 100yds and tried again. It was shooting 8in high so we dialed it back down. But even with that he couldn't get it to go where he wanted. He was frustrated and a bit embarrassed, finally asked if I would give it a go. I sat down and shot and tried to get it adjusted. It would hit 4in high so i would move it 4 clicks down and we would hit 3in low now. 1 click up and it would hit 4in high and 3in to the left. Decided to not touch the scope anymore but to just see if we could get 3 rounds to group together. With a fresh target he tried again and it was a 6in group. He had me go and best I could get it was a 5in group. I am by no means an expert shooter but I am far from a novice. He was using some cheaper FMJ rounds and figured we should try something else. Fast forward a week and he had gone to the store and picked up different types of rounds. He got 50gr 55gr and 62gr ammo. He got 5.56 and 223. Soft point, FMJ and even plastic tipped. Figured that would hopefully be the cheapest fix. We headed out again and at 100 without touching the scope, best he could get was 6in group. With the 223 62gr SP federal Fusion I got it to a 3in group. At one point we got 2 to hit close then the 3rd would be 5in off. Still far from what you want or expect from a new gun. The gun has been cleaned and made sure everything was tight. The barrel looks clean and brass has no visible defects. Not to sound conceded but I began to doubt my shooting skills. I pulled out my "cheap" PSA coyote gun and shot a 5 round sub MOA group. So I don't feel like it was an operator error.

My question at this point is it the scope or the rifle? It is a vortex scope so he could send it in. Maybe something is bouncing around in there and throwing it off. Considering taking one of my ARs and putting his mount and scope on mine to see if it is culprit. At this point if its the gun then he would need to look at sending it back to the manufacture. Any other tips or advice as what we could/should do to fix the problem would be greatly appreciated.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I would put the scope on a gun that does shoot well, I did that with my sons one scope. Turned out it was his scope,

 

[powermad]

If you have the means then swapping stuff around will localize the problem.

 

[doubleh]

My #1 grandson and I had the same problem not long ago. It turned out to be his scope was broken internally. It's a Vortex and has been returned to see what they will to do.

 

[mshootnit]

When you shoot, you only rest the forearm on the front bag, not the barrel right? You dont rest the barrel directly on anything when you shoot. That can cause wild results. I guess I would start with a good cleaning, make sure the bore and chamber are clean. Then I would remove the scope from the mount, and put a known good scope on there, making sure the mount and rings are tight. Try again with some good factory ammo. If it still is grouping wildly, try a different mount. If it still is grouping wildly, it would be time to follow up with the factory.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Bad scope...but to verify, strap the gun down in a shooting sled..or sand bag the crap out if it so it moves the lest amount OR...find some old iron sights and try shooting it again. Just see how it groups. If it groups better without the scope...there's your answer..

But judging by what you've written...its a bad scope. Been there...seen that. Vortex does churn out a bad one every so often. Just send it back..it's a pain free experience. Vortex will offer ZERO flak about it.

 

[JFrank]

It doesn’t take but a tiny bit of mis alignment or slack in a mounting system to throw a scope into scatter mode.
Not all mounts play well together. 90% of the time it’s not the scope.

 

[lightman]

Change one thing at a time until you find the problem. I would start by putting another known good scope and mount on the rifle and trying it. Then I would put the suspected bad scope and mount on a good shooting rifle and try it. I've never had FMJ ammo that shot really great but none that shot that bad. It sounds like you tried enough different ammo to rule out it being the ammo.

 

[gotboostvr]

More likely than not, either a scope or scope mount issue as has been said.

Not sure which is the case here, but I've seen more mis-mounted scopes than broken ones. Especially brand new.

 

[jmr40]

An AR places the scope MUCH higher above the bore than most rifles. This makes it impossible to be zeroed at 25 yards and even close at 100 yards. With most of them a 25 yard zero means it will be zeroed once again at about 300 yards and much higher at 50-200 yards. That's not your whole problem, but it does add to the difficulty of zeroing an AR.

I would try another scope of known quality on the rifle 1st. If you can't do any better you have a rifle or mount issue, which I suspect is the case. But change the scope and double check the mounts 1st.

 

[gotboostvr]

An AR places the scope MUCH higher above the bore than most rifles. This makes it impossible to be zeroed at 25 yards and even close at 100 yards. With most of them a 25 yard zero means it will be zeroed once again at about 300 yards and much higher at 50-200 yards. That's not your whole problem, but it does add to the difficulty of zeroing an AR.

Very true. When zeroing AR's at short range, I like to zero a little low. About an inch at 50, maybe an inch and a half at 25 before going to 100.

Edited: sorry, had that backwards.

 

[Charlie98]

I'll go in a little bit of a different direction...

First... it's obvious you need to isolate the possible scope or mount problem. I always carry my ancient, trusty Bushnell scope with me when I'm trying to work into a rifle's accuracy. If there are inconsistent results, first thing I do is yank whatever sighting system off, and put that Bushnell on... it's a known quantity.

If you determine the scope or mount isn't the problem... you are going to have to switch to hardware mode. I would pull the forearm and gas tube off and check the barrel nut for proper torque. I had a DPMS that shot a little wild... turns out the barrel nut was only hand tight. No kidding. I would also check to see if there is abnormal play between the barrel and upper... it's possible the upper isn't square and the barrel is moving around, even with a properly torqued barrel nut.

 

[powermad]

I use my tripod to mount the upper in.
Then with a 2" circle about 5 yds away on the wall and centered in the bore I adjust windage and set the reticle 2.5" above the circle.
That gets me close at 50 yds and I adjust for 2" low at 50yds.
Then move to 100 and dial it in.

With a big enough target you can just move straight to 100, I have 2'x3' backers and use the backside of xmas wrapping.

 

[Varminterror]

@jmr40’s explanation diagnoses the fact the rifle shot 8” high at 100 after being zeroed at 25.

The Burris PEPR places the optic 2.6” over bore, so zeroing at 25yrds puts 10moa of elevation above “parallel” between the line of sight and the bore. But a 100yrd zero with a 223/5.56 only needs 4moa of elevation above parallel, so zeroing at 25yrds will inevitably put us around 6” above center at 100.

But it doesn’t explain away the inconsistent impacts and adjustments, or the terrible accuracy.

Black Rain Ordnance aren’t particularly fine barrels, but any barrel moderately better than a tomato stake will shoot smaller than 5”.

 

[jmorris]

My question at this point is it the scope or the rifle?

I was given a pistol laser sight by a friend years ago and never really had a use for it until one day swapping from day to night optics and confirming zero it hit me. Mount it on the rifle and I could confirm or zero anything to the dot.

I now have them on a number of rifles, where I swap optics.



If the dot doesn’t stay lined up with the crosshairs, it’s probably not the rifles fault.

 

[Turkeytider]

I would put the scope on a gun that does shoot well, I did that with my sons one scope. Turned out it was his scope,

This IMO. Sure sounds like a scope issue. Did he and you try any match ammunition?

 

[d2wing]

Another issue I found on a PSA upper, the BCG and bolt were out of spec. The bolt was binding in BCG. This caused erratic groups. Replaced with a BCM BCG and bolt fixed it.

 

[film495]

my first guess would be the scope is moving around. I'd take it off and take my time, and redo the scope mounts and start over sighting it in. or like you are saying put it on another rifle and see what you get. maybe swap scopes if you have another one available. swapping would probably narrow things down the fastest.

 

[kalielkslayer]

I’d say
#1 mounts
#2 scope
#3 rifle

But the advice to swap a scope known to be accurate would be my first fix after making sure I couldn’t move the current scope in it’s mounts. If this fixes it, it’s the scope. If not, likely your mounts.

 

[illinoisburt]

I’d say
#1 mounts
#2 scope
#3 rifle

But the advice to swap a scope known to be accurate would be my first fix after making sure I couldn’t move the current scope in it’s mounts. If this fixes it, it’s the scope. If not, likely your mounts.

This is the order I would be checking as well. Start with things you can do away from the range. Start with the mount. Where is the mount located on the rail? I'd make sure it's receiver only. If it's partially on the receiver and part on the forend funny things can happen. Second, it's qd and adjustable so confirm that the clamps are under tension when they lock giving a tight clamp. You could put the scope and mount in a vice then do box a quick box test of the turrets to see if the crosshairs return to zero after maybe +/- 20-30 clicks left, up, right, down. If something's awry it would likely show up quickly.

 

[jleyring]

Finally have an update. First off, thank you to everyone for the input. It was very helpful and helped to pinpoint the issue. Had him check his mounts and they looked good. He returned the scope and got a new one. Still a Vortex Strike Eagle. We went out to the range and tried some basic soft point ammo. Already the groups closed to 2in. He felt it was his shooting more then the ammo. He tried some green tipped stuff that again went to the 6in groups. Lastly he had some 55gr Winchester varmint ammo and it patterned right around 1in. He was elated. He had been so discouraged that his new rifle wasn't shooting well. I was happy that he was able to get it grouping without me having to shoot a round for him. He is a decent shot but I think his confidence was lacking towards the end. He was slightly bummed that the ammo that shot well was more expensive. So he is going to by the components (if he can find them) and reload some ammo with my equipment. The main issue was the scope. Once it was changed the grouping changed dramatically. Then second this gun is more particular with the ammo. Just happy that he found something that worked for him.

 

[TonyAngel]

I'd tell your friend that it's an AR, not a precision rifle. What I mean is that if he's gonna chase small groups, he might have been better served with a bolt gun. Of course, chasing small groups for the time being, just to see what it will do is fine, but in the long run, it's an AR. He needs to find an ammo that the rifle shoots reasonably well that he can stack tall and deep.

Most run of the mill barrels shoot military type ball ammo to 3 MOA or more. My favorite ammo for reasonable accuracy and price are Frontier and PPU M193 for 55gr and Norma SS109 for 62gr. I get 1.5 to 2 MOA or so accuracy with those out of my Criterion barrels. Another that I tried and have had good luck with is the Ammo Inc 55gr stuff.

For accuracy and price to performance ratio, I really like the Black Dot 55gr Vmax .223 ammo. Every AR I have shoots that stuff sub MOA. The downside is that it's a bit slow and drops like a brick at 300, but I don't have anything with a barrel longer than 14.5"

 

[Turkeytider]

I'd tell your friend that it's an AR, not a precision rifle. What I mean is that if he's gonna chase small groups, he might have been better served with a bolt gun. Of course, chasing small groups for the time being, just to see what it will do is fine, but in the long run, it's an AR. He needs to find an ammo that the rifle shoots reasonably well that he can stack tall and deep.

Most run of the mill barrels shoot military type ball ammo to 3 MOA or more. My favorite ammo for reasonable accuracy and price are Frontier and PPU M193 for 55gr and Norma SS109 for 62gr. I get 1.5 to 2 MOA or so accuracy with those out of my Criterion barrels. Another that I tried and have had good luck with is the Ammo Inc 55gr stuff.

For accuracy and price to performance ratio, I really like the Black Dot 55gr Vmax .223 ammo. Every AR I have shoots that stuff sub MOA. The downside is that it's a bit slow and drops like a brick at 300, but I don't have anything with a barrel longer than 14.5"

Ditto,on the Black Dot .223 55 grain VMax. Shoot it in my Savage 110 . I`ve come to be surprised when I get anything other than a sub-MOA 3 shot group at 100 yards with that load ( and anything other than sub-MOA is a rare exception! ).

 

[z7]

First, verify the mount is properly secure, all screws torqued to Burris spec

move it to a gun thst does shoot well to check the scope

the problem sounds like a scope or mount problem, or just crappy ammo. I had a buddy who could not get his sighted in with cheap bulk ammo, I swapped him a few of my hand loads and it fixed his problem

Get one box of decent target ammo, 69 or 77 grain stuff (black hills, hornady, federal, etc)

 

[d2wing]

Read this again. If it's not the bolt it sounds very much like a bad scope.