[Silly question] Would some one please explain the difference ...
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Mark whiz
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I hope I can explain the difference for you.
A true saboted bullet is a sub-caliber bullet that is fitted inside of a hard plastic cup to fit the gun bore's diameter. The sabot will also have a belled bottom end to help seal the chamber to maximize the utilization of the powder burning. For example, for a .50cal rifle, you will use a .45cal bullet wrapped in a sabot which is about .03" in thickness all the way around. this results in a total thickness of about .510" - this gives a nice tight fit in the bore, imparts maximum effect of the rifling to the bullet, maximizes velocity, AND allows you to use a lighter, more areodynamic bullet for better accuracy and more distance. BTW, the bullet leaves the sabot about 10 to 15 feet after it departs the barrel as the airspeed of the bullet grabs the petals of the sabot and that drag on the plastic pulls it right off the bullet.
The powerbelts on the other hand are true caliber bullet (typically about .504" in .50cal versions) that have the belled cup of a sabot attached to the powder end of the bullet, but the plastic does NOT come between the bullet and the gun bore like a sabot does. The cup serves the same purpose of sealing the bore and maximizing the expanding gas of ignition - but other than that, the powerbelt is nothing more than an old style conical bullet. Powerbelts depend on obturation (compression that forces the bullet to widen against the bore walls due to being suddenly hit with the force of ignition) in order to contact the rifling of the bore. The sabot cups are supposed to fall off of the powerbelts just like on sabot bullets, but I've found that sometimes that doesn't happen (especially if higher powder charges are used) and that cup hanging on the bullet literally destroys accuracy.
some sabot examples:
http://www.mmpsabots.com/
Powerbelt examples:
http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/
A true saboted bullet is a sub-caliber bullet that is fitted inside of a hard plastic cup to fit the gun bore's diameter. The sabot will also have a belled bottom end to help seal the chamber to maximize the utilization of the powder burning. For example, for a .50cal rifle, you will use a .45cal bullet wrapped in a sabot which is about .03" in thickness all the way around. this results in a total thickness of about .510" - this gives a nice tight fit in the bore, imparts maximum effect of the rifling to the bullet, maximizes velocity, AND allows you to use a lighter, more areodynamic bullet for better accuracy and more distance. BTW, the bullet leaves the sabot about 10 to 15 feet after it departs the barrel as the airspeed of the bullet grabs the petals of the sabot and that drag on the plastic pulls it right off the bullet.
The powerbelts on the other hand are true caliber bullet (typically about .504" in .50cal versions) that have the belled cup of a sabot attached to the powder end of the bullet, but the plastic does NOT come between the bullet and the gun bore like a sabot does. The cup serves the same purpose of sealing the bore and maximizing the expanding gas of ignition - but other than that, the powerbelt is nothing more than an old style conical bullet. Powerbelts depend on obturation (compression that forces the bullet to widen against the bore walls due to being suddenly hit with the force of ignition) in order to contact the rifling of the bore. The sabot cups are supposed to fall off of the powerbelts just like on sabot bullets, but I've found that sometimes that doesn't happen (especially if higher powder charges are used) and that cup hanging on the bullet literally destroys accuracy.
some sabot examples:
http://www.mmpsabots.com/
Powerbelt examples:
http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/
hildo
Member
I never knew what a sabot or a powerbelt was. Thank you for the clear explanation.
Now I can't stop thinking why someone would use either of them since I cannot see advantages. Disadvantage would melted plastic in the barrel?
A sabot: If you want to shoot a smaller bullet why not take a smaller caliber gun?
Powerbelt: Would a minie not work better or just as well?
Now I can't stop thinking why someone would use either of them since I cannot see advantages. Disadvantage would melted plastic in the barrel?
A sabot: If you want to shoot a smaller bullet why not take a smaller caliber gun?
Powerbelt: Would a minie not work better or just as well?
DaveP (UK)
Member
I'll take a crack at that one, then maybe someone will tell me if I've got it right
For a rifle the limit of performance is decided by how big a powder charge can be burnt before the bullet exits, and this partly reflects the time taken for a column of lightly compressed powder to burn from one end to the other. You can vary some parameters such as bullet weight, powder charge, powder type and grain size, but there is a clear limit to muzzle energy. In practice this may not be achievable because of the need to choose a bullet and a charge that will deliver accuracy.
Metallic cartridges allowed things to go a bit further by using a necked cartridge so that a bigger (ie. wider) column of powder could be burnt within the time limit, generating more propulsive gases. Muzzle loader barrels however are straight tubes from muzzle to breech plug...
Using a sabot allows a muzzle loader to shoot a bullet using a powder column wider than the bullet itself. I just hope that when I shoot a .44mag pistol bullet (.429" dia IIRC) from my .50 cal ML rifle it'll be coming out faster than if I shot it from a barrel of .44 (pistol) bore because of the oversize charge. Faster results in a flatter trajectory and less range estimation problems for hunters (Who are the main market).
The rifling in traditional muzzle loaders is not particularly suitable for their use. They are intended for use with inline percussion rifles, which are somewhat controversial in many areas of the US
I think I'll stop now!Hope that makes sense to you.
I had the same thought about minie bullets!
hildo
Member
Good explanation Steve regarding the theorie behing the necked cases of modern guns.
I do not know for sure, but am guessing there may be something else too.
If the case would have the same diameter of a modern small caliber bullet it would not hold much gunpowder to propel the bullet to extreme speeds. To get enough gunpowder in the case I think the case designers may have chosen a large diameter case on the bottom since a case diameter of the same diameter of the bullet would have to be extremely long, and therefore not very practical.
Another thing I read, found it very interesting, was a website of I believe a Swiss man who experimented with the earliest handguns. Basicly sticks with a touchhole. I remember that he reproduced such a weapon of relatively large caliber. But the diameter where the power was put was in fact smaller of diameter than the barrel itself.
When fired he noted a short sharp, smokeless powder like, bang. He also had a scientifical theory why the black powder. in the narrow section of this barrel, exploded much faster than in a regular barrel.
I can't remember what it was and I lost the website.
Aha! Just found it! http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/handgonne.html
This is very interesting reading.
This may indicate that the same amount of blackpowder in a narrower but longer collum may explode faster.
Maybe any pyrotechnic wizard among us that can explain if this is correct?
I do not know for sure, but am guessing there may be something else too.
If the case would have the same diameter of a modern small caliber bullet it would not hold much gunpowder to propel the bullet to extreme speeds. To get enough gunpowder in the case I think the case designers may have chosen a large diameter case on the bottom since a case diameter of the same diameter of the bullet would have to be extremely long, and therefore not very practical.
Another thing I read, found it very interesting, was a website of I believe a Swiss man who experimented with the earliest handguns. Basicly sticks with a touchhole. I remember that he reproduced such a weapon of relatively large caliber. But the diameter where the power was put was in fact smaller of diameter than the barrel itself.
When fired he noted a short sharp, smokeless powder like, bang. He also had a scientifical theory why the black powder. in the narrow section of this barrel, exploded much faster than in a regular barrel.
I can't remember what it was and I lost the website.
Aha! Just found it! http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/handgonne.html
This is very interesting reading.
This may indicate that the same amount of blackpowder in a narrower but longer collum may explode faster.
Maybe any pyrotechnic wizard among us that can explain if this is correct?
for a sabbot shot the reason i would use one. (or peope with newer inline black powders use them) is they are closer to a modern day hunting bullet. they are designed to mushroom and expand more than a straight lead mini would. also fireing a .45 out of a .50 useing the charge of a .50 the bullet would go much faster. (think of taking a 454, and stuffing it in a VW rabbit... its gonna go like greased goose crap)
not sure about the powerbelts. probably just a more modern bullet for hunting with.
not sure about the powerbelts. probably just a more modern bullet for hunting with.
DixieTexian
Member
Isn't there some companies who make the breach end of their muzzle loaders a smaller diameter? Could this be why?
DaveP (UK)
Member
Uhlrich's site is well worth looking at, interesting man.
I half remember reading something about a C19 rifle which had a smaller chamber for the powder. In this case the idea IIRC was that the bullet could be rammed onto the step hard enough to upset it, so that a loose bullet could be dropped in easily and then forced to grip the rifling. Tried to come up with a name but it escapes me.
I half remember reading something about a C19 rifle which had a smaller chamber for the powder. In this case the idea IIRC was that the bullet could be rammed onto the step hard enough to upset it, so that a loose bullet could be dropped in easily and then forced to grip the rifling. Tried to come up with a name but it escapes me.
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