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Since most on this forum would carry a Revolver

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by gmh1013, Dec 31, 2012.

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  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    Sounds good, if you can do it.

    Criminals are very mobile these days. And crowded parking is just one reason to expect to be at risk near your car.

    Personally, I cannot begin to imagine choosing to try to depend upon speed and endurance for survival when attacked by a violent criminal attacker with a knife, and when using a firearm is possible.

    ...which is precisely what some well designed Tueller training would show you.

    Whenever retreat is safely possible, it is the best option.

    Not very prudent, I'm afraid.

    That's excellent advice, and it's something that people who fantasize about traipsing around their houses with gun in hand looking fora burglar should keep in mind.

    It may or it may not.

    No one wants to get shot. But I would not count on the belief that a second attacker who cannot escape without your car, or who cannot safely disengage after you have started firing, or who is not rational, or who does not yet realize that it is you who has fired, will not continue to present an imminent threat.

    My last defensive gun use occurred in 1968, but as they say, past performance is no guarantee of future results.

    Good.

    Who suggested such an impossible tactic?

    Your understanding of the concept of community indemnification of law enforcement officers is seriously flawed.

    No one should ever forget that.
     
  2. bsms

    bsms Member

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    Post 81: "As one trainer I knew said, "hide behind the wall of bullets."
     
  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    Missed that. I would not have used those words, but but let's not take them out of context:


    None of that is "stupid and immoral." It's just basic self preservation.

    And it's a whole lot smarter than waiting until an attacker stops attacking before shooting him; choosing to grapple with an attacker with a knife when you have a gun; or taking "an extra second" to make a "good shot" when someone is trying to shoot you.

    And by the way, we strongly recommend against shooting a double action revolver single action in a use of force encounter unless you happen for some reason to be shooting at long range.
     
  4. bsms

    bsms Member

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    ^^ Yep, we disagree. But I never said to wait until an attacker stops attacking to shoot. If the attacker is moving toward you, feel free to shoot. If he is moving sideways or away, then use the time to increase the distance rather than taking a low Pk shot at him. And if a guy rushes you with a knife from 15 feet, you feel free to draw your gun and shoot. Odds are, you'll be stabbed. I'll focus on NOT getting stabbed as my top priority. And when shooting, I'll take whatever time I think I need to get a hit. But you do what you think is best, and I'll do likewise.
     
  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    Is it with Sam's statement
    • "The best way to keep him from getting a good shot at you is to shoot HIM", or with
    • "A halfway decent shot made in half a second is a WHOLE lot better than a PERFECT shot made 2 or 3 seconds late", or with
    • "He who hits first often wins. He who doesn't shoot, can't hit. He who waits for perfection (if he has the superhuman fortitude to do so) probably won't get the chance"?

    I do not see how those points can be disputed.

    If he charges from 15 feet, I will certainly have to move, evade, and if at all possible, put something between me and him (car, car door, lamp post, shopping cart, before drawing and firing. From 25 feet, I can draw and hit multiple times, but I would probably not prevent him from getting to me without moving or putting something between me and him or both, while drawing and firing. In either instance I might well end up using my Blackthorn. I most certainly would not think, even for a fraction of a second, about "going for a gunless fight".

    That makes sense, but you had better be able to get several hits in a fraction of a second. If not, you had better start training for it.

    Don't think group size. Think paper plate size. And when you can hit every time, shoot faster. Steel plates are useful for real-time scoring. Use a timer.
     
  6. Deer_Freak

    Deer_Freak Member.

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    I am not the fastest shot. In fact, as I age I shoot slower all the time. But the last IDPA match I shot I cleared a course of 16 steel plates in 38 seconds. That is drawing my pistol from concealment. firing, showing my gun is clear and holstering my weapon. I can shoot the same course even faster in real life situation. When I carry my gun for self defense the decocker is not engaged. It's just draw and fire. Instead of messing with the decocker I can actually cock my gun so I can get the first shot off in single action.
     
  7. CPLofMARINES

    CPLofMARINES Member

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    I don't believe so. Sometimes I carry a J-frame. However
    I think if one is packing a small wheel gun, said individual
    Needs to look at things a little more clearly. Although
    Sometimes I like to carry my 29 4" with hot specials, ie .
    Double Tap or Buffalo Bore.
    Whether a wonder nine or wheel gun, practice.............

    Semper Fi
     
  8. CJW

    CJW Member

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    I think we sometimes tend to over-think all the scary possibilities of life, but the truth is you just can't be prepared for everything. All of us have a much greater chance of being hit by a drunk driver than facing a crazed gunman. All you can do is drive carefully, be aware, and not worry about it. That said, I am prepared to defend myself in the most likely scenarios with a gun that is convenient enough for me to carry everywhere I go. Most crooks are just looking for an easy score and not looking to get into a gunfight, and that being the case, my J-frame is likely all the deterrent I will ever need. If I actually do find myself faced by multiple shooters or a maniac with an AK-47, I will be outgunned no matter what pistol I'm carrying. I would do my best, I hope, but I'm not going to go through life worrying about being prepared to shoot weak-hand, covered in blood, reloading on the run, against a machine gun wielding madman. I've got a lot more likely contingencies to worry about. So, I carry a 5-shooter with no worries. I practice with it regularly, have great confidence in it, and it carries nicely in my pocket so it is always with me. That's just my .02
     
  9. bsms

    bsms Member

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    "The best way to keep him from getting a good shot at you is to shoot HIM"...

    Not really. It is true that if you shoot him and kill him right away, then that has worked. But if you trade shots with him, and you put 3-8 rounds center mass, he can still be shooting back at you. And there is no guarantee that any of your 3-8 rounds center mass will stop him from shooting. There have been a lot of cases where the bad guy continues shooting back even after being repeatedly hit in the chest & stomach.

    And if ONE of his return shots hits you in a vital spot, you die. So no, shooting at him "halfway decent" will not save you. Unless you are lucky.

    OTOH, one very good shot from 10 feet, into the face, with a decent caliber, will almost certainly stop him. And at modest ranges like 15-20 feet, running sideways so he has to pull lead will give you decent odds of survival. Opening up a gap, finding cover, then seeing if he is following (and shooting if he is) may make more sense. But a plan of hiding behind a wall of lead isn't a very good plan. Suppressive fire isn't a term MOST self-defense plans need to use...or most District Attorneys want to hear!

    "A halfway decent shot made in half a second is a WHOLE lot better than a PERFECT shot made 2 or 3 seconds late"...

    Define halfway decent? Hits the BG somewhere, anywhere? Then according to the FBI, you have about a 50% chance of ending the fight with a halfway decent shot. And a 50% chance it will go on. Most of us will need more than 0.5 seconds just to access our weapons. I don't walk thru downtown Tucson with a gun on my thigh.

    Getting your arm up and letting your arm aim the gun takes about 0.5-1 seconds longer than shooting from the hip. My best guess is about 0.5+ seconds. That delay goes a long way to ensuring a hit rather than a miss.

    "He who hits first often wins. He who doesn't shoot, can't hit. He who waits for perfection (if he has the superhuman fortitude to do so) probably won't get the chance"?

    One of the reasons I like shooting single action is that it forces me to take a little bit longer than firing double action from the hip. For me, that difference translates to about 90% hits at 30 feet vs about 25-30%. Each person will have a different rate of success. Do what works for you. Shooting from the hip with a Ruger Vaquero, my son-in-law probably is close to 100% hits at 30 feet. Shooting with a subcompact semi-auto, neither of us can hit squat shooting from the hip. Folks need to think about what it takes for THEM to get a decent hit rate, and adjust either their tactics or training accordingly.

    I don't know of any ranges around where I can practice running and shooting. If I tried it out in the desert, I'd probably trip and fall on a cactus. And my budget for ammo emphasizes 22 LR, and about 50 rounds of centerfire ammo a month. Someone willing to spend the bucks to shoot 2,000 rounds/month can use different criteria because they will shoot better than I will.

    I met a guy who practices a minimum of 30 minutes a day on his fast draw. Did I mention he isn't married? His criteria probably differ from mine, and I'm NOT going to start practice a quick draw 30+ minutes a night! So I need to adjust to what my lifestyle supports.
     
  10. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    Let's make it perfectly clear: your objective is not to kill him. One more time: your objective is not to kill him.

    I think Sam's point was that if you do not shoot soon enough, you will not be able to shoot at all. Nothing about any recommendation to "trade shots."

    The point was that if you do not shoot quickly enough, you will be in a world of hurt.

    Sure, but anyone who has had any relevant training at all, and anyone who has read the FBI report linked above, knows that such a shot would be a matter of pure luck.

    That's fine, for hunting, target shooting, or shooting tin cans or snakes. However, shooting single action is a very poor idea when it comes to self defense, and the fact that it takes "a little bit longer" and may result in the defender's being shot first is only one reason to not shoot single action. No one recommends it.
     
  11. 12gaugeTim

    12gaugeTim Member

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    If your plan in an encounter where yourself and the opponent party are both armed is to shoot in single action to take more time on your shots, it's probably time for a reality check.
     
  12. RandyC

    RandyC Member

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    Once you've digested all the data at hand, made an informed choice as to your sidearm, and come up with a Plan A for a most likely scenario ... be ready to immediately switch to Plan D, E, F, or just getting the heck out of Dodge.
     
  13. asia331

    asia331 Member

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    Funny; I normally carry two, a Self-loader auto and a revolver back-up and feel silly when I only have one.
     
  14. Clark

    Clark Member

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    I carry a single AA battery flashlight in one shirt pocket and a 380 in the other shirt pocket... and an SOG spec elite mini in my front pants pocket.

    But next to the bed, I have a big mag lite flashlight [read club] and a 357 magnum.
     
  15. bsms

    bsms Member

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  16. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Funny, in a sad kind of way, but not to the point. What a team of law enforcement officers (who honestly tend not to train much or well from what most of us have seen) might do in a dynamic entry against an armed suspected drug dealer has little relevance to how a well-trained and practiced armed citizen should shoot when confronted by an attacker.

    Without getting into cop-bashing territory, anyone who holds up police training as a gold standard is ... scary.
     
  17. BLB68

    BLB68 Member

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    Well, my gun is a Shield. :evil:
     
  18. David E

    David E Member

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    Which would never be taken if he's been shooting at and hitting you during the 3-5 seconds you're taking to make the "perfect shot."

    "Pull lead?" You mean, he'd have to aim in front of you to hit you? IE; he's placing his shot in anticipation of where you'll be...at a distance of 15-20 feet??!. Well, maybe if he's using a blow gun...

    Who is promoting hip shooting as the answer here? You can shoot double action quickly and accurately without shooting from the hip.

    How about dry firing 5-10 minutes a week?
     
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