Since most on this forum would carry a Revolver

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bsms: If I'm walking out to my car at night and there is some guy hanging around near my car, I'll move in a different direction, at least long enough to get my hand on my gun.

Sounds good, if you can do it.

I don't live in a big city with crowded parking.

Criminals are very mobile these days. And crowded parking is just one reason to expect to be at risk near your car.

If a guy starts sprinting toward me with a knife, my decision to pull the gun and shoot or turn and run will depend on the situation.

Personally, I cannot begin to imagine choosing to try to depend upon speed and endurance for survival when attacked by a violent criminal attacker with a knife, and when using a firearm is possible.

And even if I could pull my gun from concealment and get a shot off in under a second, it won't prevent him from stabbing me.

...which is precisely what some well designed Tueller training would show you.

Therefor, in MANY cases, running is the best option.

Whenever retreat is safely possible, it is the best option.

Or forgetting the gun, and going for a gunless fight to control the knife so I won't get stabbed, or stabbed as bad.

Not very prudent, I'm afraid.

A GUN IS NOT A SHIELD.

That's excellent advice, and it's something that people who fantasize about traipsing around their houses with gun in hand looking fora burglar should keep in mind.

It doesn't prevent the other guy from doing anything during the next 5 seconds - not unless you shoot him in the brain.

It may or it may not.

Two or more bad guys is not uncommon. Two or more bad guys who want to get shot IS uncommon.

No one wants to get shot. But I would not count on the belief that a second attacker who cannot escape without your car, or who cannot safely disengage after you have started firing, or who is not rational, or who does not yet realize that it is you who has fired, will not continue to present an imminent threat.

In the 35 years since I pulled a gun, I've managed to live without needing to pull one.

My last defensive gun use occurred in 1968, but as they say, past performance is no guarantee of future results.

I keep a look around me. I don't go to high crime areas. I don't go out after 9PM on Friday or Saturday. On the rare times I do, I'm picky about where I go and what I carry and how I carry.

Good.

I find the idea of hiding behind a wall of lead both stupid and immoral.

Who suggested such an impossible tactic?

You are responsible for the rounds you shoot, unless you are a cop. Then you can probably shoot darn near anyone and get away with it.e

Your understanding of the concept of community indemnification of law enforcement officers is seriously flawed.

When you carry a gun in public, you assume a duty to consider the public in your tactics.

No one should ever forget that.

 

[bsms]

Post 81: "As one trainer I knew said, "hide behind the wall of bullets."

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bsms: Post 81: "As one trainer I knew said, "hide behind the wall of bullets."

Missed that. I would not have used those words, but but let's not take them out of context:

The best way to keep him from getting a good shot at you is to shoot HIM.

A halfway decent shot made in half a second is a WHOLE lot better than a PERFECT shot made 2 or 3 seconds later. He who hits first often wins. He who doesn't shoot, can't hit. He who waits for perfection (if he has the superhuman fortitude to do so) probably won't get the chance.

A decent pistol shooter can put 4-5 aimed shots into the center of a threat in one second. Multiple hits vastly decrease the bad guy's ability to fight on. Hit early, hit often!

Again, a "decent" hit fast is a whole lot better than a "perfect" hit slow.

None of that is "stupid and immoral." It's just basic self preservation.

And it's a whole lot smarter than waiting until an attacker stops attacking before shooting him; choosing to grapple with an attacker with a knife when you have a gun; or taking "an extra second" to make a "good shot" when someone is trying to shoot you.

And by the way, we strongly recommend against shooting a double action revolver single action in a use of force encounter unless you happen for some reason to be shooting at long range.

 

[bsms]

^^ Yep, we disagree. But I never said to wait until an attacker stops attacking to shoot. If the attacker is moving toward you, feel free to shoot. If he is moving sideways or away, then use the time to increase the distance rather than taking a low Pk shot at him. And if a guy rushes you with a knife from 15 feet, you feel free to draw your gun and shoot. Odds are, you'll be stabbed. I'll focus on NOT getting stabbed as my top priority. And when shooting, I'll take whatever time I think I need to get a hit. But you do what you think is best, and I'll do likewise.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bsms: Yep, we disagree.

Is it with Sam's statement

• "The best way to keep him from getting a good shot at you is to shoot HIM", or with

• "A halfway decent shot made in half a second is a WHOLE lot better than a PERFECT shot made 2 or 3 seconds late", or with

• "He who hits first often wins. He who doesn't shoot, can't hit. He who waits for perfection (if he has the superhuman fortitude to do so) probably won't get the chance"?

I do not see how those points can be disputed.

And if a guy rushes you with a knife from 15 feet, you feel free to draw your gun and shoot. Odds are, you'll be stabbed. I'll focus on NOT getting stabbed as my top priority.

If he charges from 15 feet, I will certainly have to move, evade, and if at all possible, put something between me and him (car, car door, lamp post, shopping cart, before drawing and firing. From 25 feet, I can draw and hit multiple times, but I would probably not prevent him from getting to me without moving or putting something between me and him or both, while drawing and firing. In either instance I might well end up using my Blackthorn. I most certainly would not think, even for a fraction of a second, about "going for a gunless fight".

And when shooting, I'll take whatever time I think I need to get a hit.

That makes sense, but you had better be able to get several hits in a fraction of a second. If not, you had better start training for it.

Don't think group size. Think paper plate size. And when you can hit every time, shoot faster. Steel plates are useful for real-time scoring. Use a timer.

 

[Deer_Freak]

Deer Freak, I'm not saying a heart shot is bad. But no, a heart shot doesn't guarantee he won't shoot back for another 10-30 seconds. Unless you DO shoot him in the head, NO SHOT will be certain of stopping him immediately. Might as well accept it. You gun isn't a shield. It won't stop you from being shot.

I am not the fastest shot. In fact, as I age I shoot slower all the time. But the last IDPA match I shot I cleared a course of 16 steel plates in 38 seconds. That is drawing my pistol from concealment. firing, showing my gun is clear and holstering my weapon. I can shoot the same course even faster in real life situation. When I carry my gun for self defense the decocker is not engaged. It's just draw and fire. Instead of messing with the decocker I can actually cock my gun so I can get the first shot off in single action.

 

[CPLofMARINES]

I don't believe so. Sometimes I carry a J-frame. However
I think if one is packing a small wheel gun, said individual
Needs to look at things a little more clearly. Although
Sometimes I like to carry my 29 4" with hot specials, ie .
Double Tap or Buffalo Bore.
Whether a wonder nine or wheel gun, practice.............

Semper Fi

 

[CJW]

I think we sometimes tend to over-think all the scary possibilities of life, but the truth is you just can't be prepared for everything. All of us have a much greater chance of being hit by a drunk driver than facing a crazed gunman. All you can do is drive carefully, be aware, and not worry about it. That said, I am prepared to defend myself in the most likely scenarios with a gun that is convenient enough for me to carry everywhere I go. Most crooks are just looking for an easy score and not looking to get into a gunfight, and that being the case, my J-frame is likely all the deterrent I will ever need. If I actually do find myself faced by multiple shooters or a maniac with an AK-47, I will be outgunned no matter what pistol I'm carrying. I would do my best, I hope, but I'm not going to go through life worrying about being prepared to shoot weak-hand, covered in blood, reloading on the run, against a machine gun wielding madman. I've got a lot more likely contingencies to worry about. So, I carry a 5-shooter with no worries. I practice with it regularly, have great confidence in it, and it carries nicely in my pocket so it is always with me. That's just my .02

 

[bsms]

"The best way to keep him from getting a good shot at you is to shoot HIM"...

Not really. It is true that if you shoot him and kill him right away, then that has worked. But if you trade shots with him, and you put 3-8 rounds center mass, he can still be shooting back at you. And there is no guarantee that any of your 3-8 rounds center mass will stop him from shooting. There have been a lot of cases where the bad guy continues shooting back even after being repeatedly hit in the chest & stomach.

And if ONE of his return shots hits you in a vital spot, you die. So no, shooting at him "halfway decent" will not save you. Unless you are lucky.

OTOH, one very good shot from 10 feet, into the face, with a decent caliber, will almost certainly stop him. And at modest ranges like 15-20 feet, running sideways so he has to pull lead will give you decent odds of survival. Opening up a gap, finding cover, then seeing if he is following (and shooting if he is) may make more sense. But a plan of hiding behind a wall of lead isn't a very good plan. Suppressive fire isn't a term MOST self-defense plans need to use...or most District Attorneys want to hear!

"A halfway decent shot made in half a second is a WHOLE lot better than a PERFECT shot made 2 or 3 seconds late"...

Define halfway decent? Hits the BG somewhere, anywhere? Then according to the FBI, you have about a 50% chance of ending the fight with a halfway decent shot. And a 50% chance it will go on. Most of us will need more than 0.5 seconds just to access our weapons. I don't walk thru downtown Tucson with a gun on my thigh.

Getting your arm up and letting your arm aim the gun takes about 0.5-1 seconds longer than shooting from the hip. My best guess is about 0.5+ seconds. That delay goes a long way to ensuring a hit rather than a miss.

"He who hits first often wins. He who doesn't shoot, can't hit. He who waits for perfection (if he has the superhuman fortitude to do so) probably won't get the chance"?

One of the reasons I like shooting single action is that it forces me to take a little bit longer than firing double action from the hip. For me, that difference translates to about 90% hits at 30 feet vs about 25-30%. Each person will have a different rate of success. Do what works for you. Shooting from the hip with a Ruger Vaquero, my son-in-law probably is close to 100% hits at 30 feet. Shooting with a subcompact semi-auto, neither of us can hit squat shooting from the hip. Folks need to think about what it takes for THEM to get a decent hit rate, and adjust either their tactics or training accordingly.

I don't know of any ranges around where I can practice running and shooting. If I tried it out in the desert, I'd probably trip and fall on a cactus. And my budget for ammo emphasizes 22 LR, and about 50 rounds of centerfire ammo a month. Someone willing to spend the bucks to shoot 2,000 rounds/month can use different criteria because they will shoot better than I will.

I met a guy who practices a minimum of 30 minutes a day on his fast draw. Did I mention he isn't married? His criteria probably differ from mine, and I'm NOT going to start practice a quick draw 30+ minutes a night! So I need to adjust to what my lifestyle supports.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bsms, in reponse to ""The best way to keep him from getting a good shot at you is to shoot HIM": Not really. It is true that if you shoot him and kill him right away, then that has worked.

Let's make it perfectly clear: your objective is not to kill him. One more time: your objective is not to kill him.

But if you trade shots with him, and you put 3-8 rounds center mass, he can still be shooting back at you. And there is no guarantee that any of your 3-8 rounds center mass will stop him from shooting. There have been a lot of cases where the bad guy continues shootinIg back even after being repeatedly hit in the chest & stomach.

I think Sam's point was that if you do not shoot soon enough, you will not be able to shoot at all. Nothing about any recommendation to "trade shots."

And if ONE of his return shots hits you in a vital spot, you die. So no, shooting at him "halfway decent" will not save you. Unless you are lucky.

The point was that if you do not shoot quickly enough, you will be in a world of hurt.

OTOH, one very good shot from 10 feet, into the face, with a decent caliber, will almost certainly stop him.

Sure, but anyone who has had any relevant training at all, and anyone who has read the FBI report linked above, knows that such a shot would be a matter of pure luck.

One of the reasons I like shooting single action is that it forces me to take a little bit longer than firing double action from the hip. For me, that difference translates to about 90% hits at 30 feet vs about 25-30%.

That's fine, for hunting, target shooting, or shooting tin cans or snakes. However, shooting single action is a very poor idea when it comes to self defense, and the fact that it takes "a little bit longer" and may result in the defender's being shot first is only one reason to not shoot single action. No one recommends it.

 

[12gaugeTim]

If your plan in an encounter where yourself and the opponent party are both armed is to shoot in single action to take more time on your shots, it's probably time for a reality check.

 

[RandyC]

Once you've digested all the data at hand, made an informed choice as to your sidearm, and come up with a Plan A for a most likely scenario ... be ready to immediately switch to Plan D, E, F, or just getting the heck out of Dodge.

 

[asia331]

I sometimes carry a second gun now too, though. I feel a tad silly about it.
AFDavis11 is offline Report Post Quick reply to this message

Funny; I normally carry two, a Self-loader auto and a revolver back-up and feel silly when I only have one.

 

[Clark]

I carry a single AA battery flashlight in one shirt pocket and a 380 in the other shirt pocket... and an SOG spec elite mini in my front pants pocket.

But next to the bed, I have a big mag lite flashlight [read club] and a 357 magnum.

 

[bsms]

I'll leave rapid shooting for highly trained SWAT teams...71 shots fired in 7 seconds. 22 hits. Multiple bullets going thru the house...some going into other houses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak&feature=youtu.be

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting

 

[Sam1911]

I'll leave rapid shooting for highly trained SWAT teams...71 shots fired in 7 seconds. 22 hits. Multiple bullets going thru the house...some going into other houses.

Funny, in a sad kind of way, but not to the point. What a team of law enforcement officers (who honestly tend not to train much or well from what most of us have seen) might do in a dynamic entry against an armed suspected drug dealer has little relevance to how a well-trained and practiced armed citizen should shoot when confronted by an attacker.

Without getting into cop-bashing territory, anyone who holds up police training as a gold standard is ... scary.

 

[BLB68]

You gun isn't a shield.

Well, my gun is a Shield.

 

[David E]

OTOH, one very good shot from 10 feet, into the face, with a decent caliber, will almost certainly stop him.

Which would never be taken if he's been shooting at and hitting you during the 3-5 seconds you're taking to make the "perfect shot."

And at modest ranges like 15-20 feet, running sideways so he has to pull lead

"Pull lead?" You mean, he'd have to aim in front of you to hit you? IE; he's placing his shot in anticipation of where you'll be...at a distance of 15-20 feet??!. Well, maybe if he's using a blow gun...

One of the reasons I like shooting single action is that it forces me to take a little bit longer than firing double action from the hip.

Who is promoting hip shooting as the answer here? You can shoot double action quickly and accurately without shooting from the hip.

I'm NOT going to start practice a quick draw 30+ minutes a night! So I need to adjust to what my lifestyle supports.

How about dry firing 5-10 minutes a week?