Since we have had another user with a kaboom...I have ???'s

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SilentStalker

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As you know we have had yet another member here that had a kaboom on a fairly new AR I do believe. Nobody really has been able to determine what exactly caused it yet as it seems to be somewhat of a mystery, but when I hear about things like this it scares the mess out of me. It seems like they are becoming more and more prevalent, whether it be due to faulty gun parts, faulty ammo, bad reloads or whatever. I know a lot of people claim that it is 99% of the time due to a bad reload but this person got the round straight out of a factory reload box. There have also been countless numbers of others reporting even Kabooms with factory loaded ammo. So, how can you make sure this does not happen in any firearm? Or is it just a risk you have to take?

Apparently, the user here sent off the AR for the gun and ammo to be checked by whoever did the factory reloads and they are claiming it was a 125 grain .223 round. How is that even possible? How can they even determine what grain a round was once it was fired or blown to bits? I mean I would imagine there is somewhat of the casing left but I do not see how one could accurately determine the grain by looking at what is left of a shell. Anyways someone please ease my mind and let me know of ways you can make sure this does not happen. Thanks.
 
I would imagine that the bullet left the brass and got stuck in the barrel without too much damage, so it can still be weighed....Just my 2 cents but I don't know the story.
 
they are claiming it was a 125 grain .223 round.
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Well, that right there is impossible.

There is no such thing as a 125 grain .224" bullet.
Let alone one loaded in an AR-15 .223 round.

BTW: Could you post a link to that thread??
I must have missed it!

rc
 
Anyways someone please ease my mind and let me know of ways you can make sure this does not happen. Thanks.
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Yes, been there and read that thread. Never commented as I wasn't there, did not see the rifle, and would rely on what is confusing information to even begin to comment. There was a good link in the thread to another gun that blew up with some good information.

To answer your question and just my own personal opinion. I avoid cheap guns in general. I either shoot quality factory ammunition or my own hand loaded ammunition. That is as good as it gets. When I say cheap guns I am not referring to some of the better military surplus rifles like the Mosins but refer to what are junk guns like US made low end stuff.

Maybe 10 or 15 years ago we had a big problem with surplus ammunition being sold at gun shows. The ammunition started out as good but people were buying the stuff in bulk and tumbling it to make it nice and shiny and boxing it. Problem was the tumbling was breaking down the powder and changing the burn rate. So while some military surplus ammunition is fine other stuff can be dangerous. The trick, if there is one, is to know what you are shooting.

While you can't make sure it doesn't happen, you can take steps to reduce the possibility of it happening. Sort of like accidents when driving a car or truck. My guess is that everyday millions of rounds go down range, every now and then something will go bad. Practicing good shooting habits reduces the chances of something bad happening to you.

Just My Take
Ron
 
I don't think kabooms are becoming any more common.

You avoid them by:
-not using ammo known to be defective;
-being very careful if you reload;
-generally, not buying anyone else's reloads, with a few exceptions;
-paying attention to your rifle and stopping your shooting if something doesn't sound or feel right, especially if you notice that there isn't any new hole on the target

If you follow those rules, you probably won't have one, and if you do it's bad luck.

The vast majority of new commercial ammo seems to be very unlikely to have defects causing a kaboom, even Russian and most of the other imports. The one type of new ammo that is somewhat common in kabooms is Federal XM193, but that may not mean much since that is one of the most common types of .223 in the US, and is loaded to military pressures (5.56 NATO), so it's rather like noting that F150s are in a lot of accidents.

Reloads, including commercial reloads, are a different story. I'm very cautious about using any. Size of the company isn't necessarily a good indicator of safety. At the moment I would use ammo "remanufactured" by Black Hills or Southwest Ammunition, and probably no others. I'll be amused if soupshooter tells us that one of those brands was the one causing him a problem, though I doubt it will be. And by all means, no gray-market gun show reloads! That's begging for trouble.
 
Reloadron said:
Maybe 10 or 15 years ago we had a big problem with surplus ammunition being sold at gun shows. The ammunition started out as good but people were buying the stuff in bulk and tumbling it to make it nice and shiny and boxing it. Problem was the tumbling was breaking down the powder and changing the burn rate.
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The powder may have broken down but it wasn't from tumbling. Poor storage conditions will break down powder. It has been shown that tumbling won't.
 
The vast majority of new commercial ammo seems to be very unlikely to have defects causing a kaboom, even Russian and most of the other imports. The one type of new ammo that is somewhat common in kabooms is Federal XM193, but that may not mean much since that is one of the most common types of .223 in the US, and is loaded to military pressures (5.56 NATO), so it's rather like noting that F150s are in a lot of accidents.
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Originally posted by Z-Michigan

Great you would tell me this since that is pretty much all of the ammo I have. I have like 2000 rounds of the junk in 5.56mm. So, what do I need to know about it to make sure it is safe? Could I weigh every one of them and look for discrepancies?
 
SilentStalker said:
Originally posted by Z-Michigan

Great you would tell me this since that is pretty much all of the ammo I have. I have like 2000 rounds of the junk in 5.56mm. So, what do I need to know about it to make sure it is safe? Could I weigh every one of them and look for discrepancies?
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Silent just shoot it and don't worry about it (if you have a 5.56 rifle). My guess would be that the kabooms caused by XM193 are caused by it being used in guns that chambered specifically for .223 Rem instead of 5.56 NATO.

Sent from my HTC One X
 
SilentStalker said:
Yes, I have a few of them and that is why I was worried. All of this Kaboom talk and military rounds is making me a little nervous. I mean the OP of the other thread is really lucky.
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I wouldn't be too worried, hundreds of thousands of XM193 rounds are put downrange each year without a problem. Yea, the other OP is very lucky considering the magnitude of his kaboom.... Very scary to say the least.

Sent from my HTC One X
 
XM193 is loaded to SAAMI .223 pressures, actually. It isn't until you get into M855 and SS109 that the increased pressures are an issue.

The XM193 that is available to the public is ammo that didn't meet DoD spec. Read into that what you want.
 
My guess would be that the kabooms caused by XM193 are caused by it being used in guns that chambered specifically for .223 Rem instead of 5.56 NATO.
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No... very unlikely that the extra pressure would cause a kaboom. A cracked bolt, maybe, but not a kaboom.

I wouldn't be too worried, hundreds of thousands of XM193 rounds are put downrange each year without a problem. Yea, the other OP is very lucky considering the magnitude of his kaboom.
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Probably more like hundreds of millions, or at least tens of millions.

I would use XM193 without much worry, I'm just noting that it's associated with kabooms. Possibly from user error like bore obstructions, etc. Who knows.
 
helotaxi said:
The powder may have broken down but it wasn't from tumbling. Poor storage conditions will break down powder. It has been shown that tumbling won't.
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I based that the powder will break down and the burn rate change on the following:

From Lyman Products Tumblers FAQ....

Q: Can I tumble loaded ammo?
A: No, this can be very dangerous. Tumbling loaded ammo can break down the powder causing extreme pressure problems.

Lyman Products Your Primary Source for Reloading Equipment


From another forum....

My Question

A discussion within a Reloading Forum which I frequent has led me to ask
a question from the experts regarding Tumbling Reloaded Rifle cases.
What is the stance of your company regarding this practice?
Does tumbling loaded rounds effect the powders inside? Are some powders
effected more so than others? Example. Are the Stick or extruded
powders effected in the same manner as a Ball powder or flake type
powder?
Any input you might be able to give me would be greatly appreciated and shared within my reloading circle.

...answer.....

And here is Mr. Mike Daly's response back.

Sir,

OK, here is the answer. DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO. The tumbling will cause degradation of the powder. This will increase the burn speed of the powder raising pressures to what may be high enough levels to damage firearms or people.

It really is this simple.

Have tests been done? Yes, tests on powders have been done in regard to degradation by vibration. Here’s what we learned, DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO.

The longer the ammo is tumbled, the worse the problem. No, We cannot tell you what length of time would be safe to tumble ammo.

Here is what we also know about the internet. There are always those people who portray themselves as experts due to the anonymity of the internet. Our responses are limited by the truth, theirs are limited by their imagination. We try very hard not to get involved in arguments on the net because of this. IF people really want the answers, they should contact us personally rather than trusting a message forum on the internet.

I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction

Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager

Hogdon Powders


Jay's final comment.....

By the way, It doesn't matter to me whether anyone tumbles loaded/primed cases or not. I won't do it, but that's just me. If YOU do it, I won't get injured if one of your cases becomes over-pressured and blows up. If you never have a problem, that's great. If you get injured the only sympathy I'll offer is that I'll be sorry that you gambled on safety and lost.
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I agree storage of loaded ammunition and powder is of paramount importance I just do not see tumbling loaded ammunition as a good practice. Personally I won't do it and I would never think about tumbling dirty loaded ammunition to make it more appealing for selling it. Maybe Lyman is correct and maybe not but I won't take the gamble.

Anyway, my comment was based on the above information provided by Lyman and Hodgon Powders. Since Hodgon makes the stuff that is good enough for me.

Ron
 
So, how can you make sure this does not happen in any firearm? Or is it just a risk you have to take?
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There is always a risk of injury when using firearms, so practice safety measures.

One safety measure per ammo. is checking the Bs: Bullet, Barrel, (ammo)Box-does the ammo. box (.223) match what the barrel says(.223). Yes, that is basic, but you'd be surprised. Bullet itself? Yes, if you are unsure or the round does not feel right in your hand while loading the magazine, look at the stamp on the bottom of the bullet.

Buying ammo: Personally, I'll only shoot factory, my re-loads, or the re-loads of a trusted friend. I NEVER buy re-loads from a stranger at the gun shows. (Did that once, from a guy who claimed he sold re-loads to a neighboring county's Sheriff Office, and they were jacked up.) Rummage sales/auction deals are very tempting, but there are known consequences of shooting unknown origin ammo..

5.56/.223 errors: interwebs reported KBs, enough said, almost. I've lost track of the goofball posts over the years wherein somebody REALLY thinks 5.56 and .223 are interchangeable loads, for a .223 specific firearm. My theory is that's where most of our reported KBs are coming from. Folks who have ADD/ADHD and/or dyslexia scenarios making a pretty basic screw up.

Oil: excessive oil in the chamber, creates excessive pressure when rounds are fired. 5.56 round + excessive oil in chamber+ .223 rifle= trouble.

CYA with these basic tips and enjoy your shooting.
 
Let's say you have a Kaboom with your favorite pistol or rifle......Do not put your hand on any mag while shooting; same can be said about those who like to place their hand below the grip of a bottom fed pistol.. Mostly the Booms exit out of the mag well. Do not put your face over the receiver when firing or just don't worry about it; stuff happens.
 
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One safety measure per ammo. is checking the Bs: Bullet, Barrel, (ammo)Box-does the ammo. box (.223) match what the barrel says(.223). Yes, that is basic, but you'd be surprised. Bullet itself? Yes, if you are unsure or the round does not feel right in your hand while loading the magazine, look at the stamp on the bottom of the bullet.
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So you should pull the bullets from your loaded ammo and look at the base of each bullet for markings that won't be there? Then presumably reload the bullets into the cases so that the ammo can be used?

Perhaps you meant to check the headstamp of each cartridge case?

What exactly is your firsthand experience?

5.56/.223 errors: interwebs reported KBs, enough said, almost. I've lost track of the goofball posts over the years wherein somebody REALLY thinks 5.56 and .223 are interchangeable loads, for a .223 specific firearm. My theory is that's where most of our reported KBs are coming from. Folks who have ADD/ADHD and/or dyslexia scenarios making a pretty basic screw up.

Oil: excessive oil in the chamber, creates excessive pressure when rounds are fired. 5.56 round + excessive oil in chamber+ .223 rifle= trouble.
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While 5.56 NATO in a .223 chamber is not a good idea, the pressure difference is in the range of "may crack a bolt" and not "kaboom."

Here is an exhaustive discussion of the difference with actual pressure testing of real ammo and barrels:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
 
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Reloadron said:
I based that the powder will break down and the burn rate change on the following:



I agree storage of loaded ammunition and powder is of paramount importance I just do not see tumbling loaded ammunition as a good practice. Personally I won't do it and I would never think about tumbling dirty loaded ammunition to make it more appealing for selling it. Maybe Lyman is correct and maybe not but I won't take the gamble.

Anyway, my comment was based on the above information provided by Lyman and Hodgon Powders. Since Hodgon makes the stuff that is good enough for me.

Ron
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And their lawyers wrote that to CTAs. The ammo manufacturers tumble every loaded round that comes out of their factory. Powder and loaded ammo are subjected to much more vibration and harshness during packaging, sorting, transport and riding around in your vehicle than a couple hours in the tumbler will give it. Would I put old, tarnished ammo in the tumbler to clean it up to sell? No, but not because of what might happen to the powder but rather because I wouldn't trust the conditions that the ammo has been stored in that led it to be tarnished in the first place.
 
So you should pull the bullets from your loaded ammo and look at the base of each bullet for markings that won't be there? Then presumably reload the bullets into the cases so that the ammo can be used?

Perhaps you meant to check the headstamp of each cartridge case?

What exactly is your firsthand experience?
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That's my experience as an NRA Instructor for Basic Pistol: it's part of the curriculum for the BP course, for noobs.

Now I know where you are not coming from.

Wanna do some more cross-talk/thread stalking? Don't, just send a P.M..
 
So you should pull the bullets from your loaded ammo and look at the base of each bullet for markings that won't be there? Then presumably reload the bullets into the cases so that the ammo can be used?

Perhaps you meant to check the headstamp of each cartridge case?

What exactly is your firsthand experience?
Click to expand...

That's my experience as an NRA Instructor for Basic Pistol: it's part of the curriculum for the BP course, for noobs.

Now I know where you are not coming from.

Wanna do some more cross-talk/thread stalking? Don't, just send a P.M..
Click to expand...

An NRA instructor for anything would know the difference between bullets and cartridges, and would know how ridiculous the above interpretation of your statement is. You've also claimed in another thread to have joined the military in 1987 and had training on "Colt" brand M16s at that time. Although that is possible, a lot of the M16s in service back then, especially the ones used for training, were made by manufacturers other than Colt.

You've made a lot of statements that seem to be just a re-hash of what has been stated 10,000 times before on the internet, and in many cases not correct. If you do in fact have military credentials and NRA instructor credentials, feel free to share them with me or one of the moderators here.
 
Powder and loaded ammo are subjected to much more vibration and harshness during packaging, sorting, transport and riding around in your vehicle than a couple hours in the tumbler will give it.
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I rather doubt that.

And I will continue to heed the admonitions from Lyman and Hogdon regarding the question of safety when it comes to tumbling loaded ammunition. You might think it's merely a case of "cya" on the part of company attorneys as a consequence of America's litigiously extreme judicial community . I think it's prudent advice-and I thank Reloadron for providing it in his informative post.
 
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