Since we have had another user with a kaboom...I have ???'s

[TAKtical]

Ive had numerous squibs over the years with everything from .22lr to .308 and in my experience, that type of malfuntion is very obvious. I keep a pen light in my range bag and anytime there is a malfunction I unload the weapon, make it safe, and check for barrel obstruction.

 

[helotaxi]

I rather doubt that.

Your ammo your call. I've seen what packages go through in transit with UPS. If you think that a little time in the tumbler is going to shake up powder more than 5-7days in a truck and the rough handling that occurs in a sort facility I wonder what you use for a tumbler or question your understanding of the forces involved and their effects on powder.

 

[Reloadron]

Your ammo your call. I've seen what packages go through in transit with UPS. If you think that a little time in the tumbler is going to shake up powder more than 5-7days in a truck and the rough handling that occurs in a sort facility I wonder what you use for a tumbler or question your understanding of the forces involved and their effects on powder.

So possibly you could shed some facts as to the effects of vibration on powder with the class? You said my initial post on the subject was wrong, I backed it up with factual information from a powder manufacturer as well as information from the guys who make / market case tumblers. You call BS and claim that to be a CYA written by their attorneys. However, you failed to provide anything factual? The door is open and rest assured if you have anything factual I can do the math.

As to a comparison between the vibration in a UPS truck and the vibration in a tumbler one is likely classified as Sine (tumbler) and the other Random (UPS Truck). Do you know the difference? Do you know the actual force exhibited by a vibratory tumbler? It is likely about 4G. About as it depends on the tumbler motor and load.

So please explain in detail how vibration effects powder and if not why not. Credible links are welcome. The problem here is you have yet to back up anything with something credible. You need to sell this a little better. You make a good point with something credible I may even buy it. Till then I am running with the engineers and chemist who make powder.

Credible links does not mean someone's basement science experiment. A well written and documented white paper is fine.

Ron

 

[powder]

While 5.56 NATO in a .223 chamber is not a good idea, the pressure difference is in the range of "may crack a bolt" and not "kaboom."

...and you're the guy inferrng it's OK to run 5.56 in a .223 with just minimal damage? Very good then, I can appreciate that, but you've got several thousand posts here-what do I know.

 

[Trent]

I've "only" had two Kabooms. One was an improperly built egyption Maadi shooting Wolf ammo. Locking lugs sheared right the hell off. Dust cover/buffer spring kept the pieces of the bolt secure so they didn't do me any harm.

Second was a carbon 15, AR15 pistol. I didn't undersand that on pistol length AR15 gas systems you have to be careful about what POWDER you use. The powder I was using proved to be too much for that short gas system. Bolt snapped clean in two. Everything stayed together, and everything except the bolt, proper, was in good shape. Problem is, replacements aren't available. (This bolt has "rounded" locking lugs, not squared, like on a normal AR15, so an AR15 bolt won't work).

Neither of those were particularly nasty or scary.

Some pictures I've seen ARE nasty.

I once saw a 20mm antiaircraft gun go kaboom at knob creek, less than 20 feet from where I was standing. Shooter was transported to the ER with a very large abdominal injury. Not pretty. Ammo was unavailable for the weapon, he was using (allegedly) shell casings from two different US produced weapons of similar size, which were WELDED together. So you could call that a "reloading" incident as well.

 

[helotaxi]

So possibly you could shed some facts as to the effects of vibration on powder with the class? You said my initial post on the subject was wrong, I backed it up with factual information from a powder manufacturer as well as information from the guys who make / market case tumblers. You call BS and claim that to be a CYA written by their attorneys. However, you failed to provide anything factual? The door is open and rest assured if you have anything factual I can do the math.

And you have provided nothing "factual" either. Do you dispute that every ammo manufacturer tumbles loaded ammo prior to packaging? You think that they might know something factual? If you think that there's going to be a white paper out there...really? Any research done by the powder companies that might be contrary to the stance that their lawyers insist that they take isn't going to be available to the public. No one else is going to fund a project "just because". That leaves someone's "basement experiment" as you put it. Funny thing is that there is one out there complete with high magnification pictures.

But let's assume that none of that is out there and your numbers are correct regarding G's (grossly overestimated unless you've taken all the media out of the tumbler, but whatever). How many G's do you think that powder is subjected to when being poured from the canister to the powder hopper? Do you worry about that breaking the powder down? Also I would argue that the vibration from the UPS truck driving down the highway is sinusoidal vibration as well (with some random from potholes, pavement seam and so forth) and the intensity is probably quite similar. Assuming that your 4G number is good, how much force is being exerted on a kernel of powder that weighs a whole 0.01gn? And you think that is going to break down the powder? How fragile do you really think powder is?

All you've really offered is the opinion of a legal department and "I know better than you" as an argument. No facts. Do the math, since you know better and then actually apply a little bit of thought to the results and reach your own conclusion.

 

[40 rod]

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3067632
This may be what is causing the problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq2TjenPWmQ&feature=youtu.be

IMHO the" .300 booby trap" is a poorly designed cartridge. It would be so simple to redo the dimensions adding a couple of millimeters to the neck for an overall length of about 1.6"

as it is now, unless each round has a heavy crimp it is a danger. and as the .300 gets more popular this will keep on happening .

and yes it is dumb. but what is really stupid is someone that knows this and still thinks its a good idea to buy a blackout upper for his 5.56 AR.

 

[Ignition Override]

A chambering round recently was somehow pushed against the flat surface to the left of my SKS' chamber. This had never happened in the previous rounds, which amount to about 3,000 or so.

Luckily I noticed that the bullet compressed into the case looked much shorter than usual.
As a reloader I realized that the potential pressure inside the case would be unknown, but could be much higher than normal and threw it into the river.

Can this bizarre type of misfeed into a hard surface happen with a .223 round in an AR?

 

[Revoliver]

*I know a lot of people claim that it is 99% of the time due to a bad reload but this person got the round straight out of a factory reload box

I can't get past this sentence.



Edit: Wow guys, last post was August 18, 2012, 06:44 PM...

 

[helotaxi]

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3067632
This may be what is causing the problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq2TjenPWmQ&feature=youtu.be

IMHO the" .300 booby trap" is a poorly designed cartridge. It would be so simple to redo the dimensions adding a couple of millimeters to the neck for an overall length of about 1.6"

as it is now, unless each round has a heavy crimp it is a danger. and as the .300 gets more popular this will keep on happening .

and yes it is dumb. but what is really stupid is someone that knows this and still thinks its a good idea to buy a blackout upper for his 5.56 AR.

Rule #1 only use ammo of the caliber marked on the firearm. The .300BLK is no more a danger than the myriad of other rounds out there that can chamber in a different firearm and blow it up. Many of them are significantly more powerful than the .300BLK. What happens if you chamber a .308 round in a .25-06 or .270? What about a .223 in a .204 Ruger?

Your "solutions" for fixing the Blackout wouldn't work. Adding to the neck makes the cartridge OAL necessarily longer and the result of that is that the round won't work through a standard AR magazine because the ogive of the bullet would be hitting the stiffening/alignment rib inside the magazine and keep the rounds from stacking correctly. That would completely defeat the design goal of the round.

Basic precautions prevent anything like this from happening. Separate magazines and rifles. If the 5.56 rifle is on the line, make sure that the .300BLK ammo is in the truck. If you can't figure out what ammo goes in your rifle, and aren't paying enough attention to what ammo you're loading into a magazine, you probably have no business being around a firearm.

 

[BSA1]

SilentStalker,

I have read and reread yor posts and don't understand what I consider your overconcern.

Z-Michigan and others have given you excellent advice. Are your ammo reloads or from a unknown source? If so you would do well to dispose of it. I will not shoot anyone's else's or any companies reloads as I have seen to many problems on the range with them. Gunshow ammo is the worst. I only trust my reloads.

Over the years I have seen shooters do very, very stupid things with reloads, ammunition and their guns. I'm sure other THR members have seen the same thing. The vast majority blame the gun or the ammo.

I didn't read the entire thread of the incident you cited. My only comment is you are only getting his side of the story and he is holding himself totally blameless.

 

[303tom]

I am going to have to agree with RC on this one, I have seen 90gr. .22cal. bullets but never a 125gr................

 

[briansmithwins]

From the original thread:

Ammo is factory remanufactured.

There is the most likely culprit right there. Don't shoot reloads. Yours, your buddies, from a 'factory' (more like a garage) or if Jesus Himself did them with angels doing QC.

Just. Don't. Shoot. Reloads.

BSW

 

[hentown]

I just don't see accounts of "numerous" AR Kbs. I do know of two recent ones, in which folks managed to chamber .300 Blackout rounds in their 5.56 rifles.

I've fired tens of thousands of rounds of my reloads through several ARs over the years, with no malfunctions. I'd write off the OP's concerns as hysteria.

 

[40 rod]

So imagine the future ..................300 blackout /booby trap is US Army standard/alternate, and YOU my good friend have been nominated range officer with thousands of clueless conscripts being herded through your range every day equipped with both 5.56 & .300aac rounds and interchangeable magazines.:banghead:

Have a nice day

 

[helotaxi]

Won't happen solely for logistical reasons. And a "clueless conscript" would never rate a rifle chambered in .300BLK to begin with. Those would be reserved for the "special" guys.

 

[40 rod]

Did somebody just repeal Murphy's Law?

 

[Reloadron]

Rule #1 only use ammo of the caliber marked on the firearm. The .300BLK is no more a danger than the myriad of other rounds out there that can chamber in a different firearm and blow it up. Many of them are significantly more powerful than the .300BLK. What happens if you chamber a .308 round in a .25-06 or .270? What about a .223 in a .204 Ruger?

Your "solutions" for fixing the Blackout wouldn't work. Adding to the neck makes the cartridge OAL necessarily longer and the result of that is that the round won't work through a standard AR magazine because the ogive of the bullet would be hitting the stiffening/alignment rib inside the magazine and keep the rounds from stacking correctly. That would completely defeat the design goal of the round.

Basic precautions prevent anything like this from happening. Separate magazines and rifles. If the 5.56 rifle is on the line, make sure that the .300BLK ammo is in the truck. If you can't figure out what ammo goes in your rifle, and aren't paying enough attention to what ammo you're loading into a magazine, you probably have no business being around a firearm.

This I strongly agree with especially dealing with presence of mind while loading magazines as too often people become complacent as in chatting on the range while loading a magazine or rifle. Applying the basic precautions Helotaxi mentions would go a long way in preventing the Ka Booms.

Ron

 

[Onmilo]

"Factory remanufactured" sums it up right there. Don't shoot anybody elses reloads but your own, Period.

 

[helotaxi]

Did somebody just repeal Murphy's Law?

Ok so we've found a way to weed out the "clueless conscripts" from future soldiers then.

Once again, this isn't the death trap that you seem to want to believe that it is, nor the ticking time bomb, nor the accident waiting to happen, nor a design flaw, nor any of the other nightmare scenarios that you have cooked up in your head. There are plenty of other rounds that could be chambered in the wrong weapon with catastrophic results, yet you don't see the interwebz jammed up with stories about how terrible all these designs are and you don't see story after story about how it happened.

 

[JustinJ]

The drive to the local range poses a far higher risk of injury than the threat of a "kaboom".

 

[R.W.Dale]

So lets review the facts. Its possible to have a KB by shoving the wrong ammunition in a 223

Shoving the wrong ammunition

WRONG AMMUNITION!

WRONG

110% user error absolutely no fault of the 300blk. If you are incapable of identifying a 30 Cal bullet from 22 from across a room you need to take up a safer vocation/hobby.

IMO this kind of chicken little situation is why revolvers come with internal locks, handguns come with instructions to never carry loaded and ruger puts their owners manual on the barrel




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

 

[taliv]

, I have seen 90gr. .22cal. bullets but never a 125gr

while not commercially available, 100g and 125g .224 bullets exist. i have several thousand of the 100g.

 

[Reloadron]

The drive to the local range poses a far higher risk of injury than the threat of a "kaboom".

I'll buy that!

Think about how many bullets find their way down range daily just in the US alone. Every now and then things do go wrong. The reasons are really too numerous to mention. So what is the shooters responsibility? The shooters responsibility are things within his/her control. The correct ammunition used in a properly cleaned gun is a good start. Before ever loading the gun making sure the barrel is free from obstructions and the list runs on. Practicing good shooting habits plain and simple. Following good shooting habits and not getting complacent is likely a good start to preventing a gun from a bad mishap.

Yeah, the odds of getting nailed in a traffic accident are more likely than a gun going bad.

Ron

 

[dragon813gt]

Just. Don't. Shoot. Reloads.

BSW

I would normally not post but this just bothers me. No ammo is 100% safe no matter what. I've lost count of all the factory ammo recalls over the years. And some of them were for double charges. I feel more confident w/ ammo I load myself. It's more consistent in charge weight and OAL. Pull down some factory rounds and take all the measurements before and after. It's amazing how consistent their ammo is w/ the volume they produce. But they aren't infallible and bad rounds do get shipped out.

I've had a few squib loads w/ factory and one w/ my reloads. I know exactly what caused the one I produced. I have no clue what caused the factory ones. There is nothing wrong w/ reloads as long as the person making them, for themselves only, follows every step correctly.



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