How are our needs much different than the police? They aren't chasing armies of bad guys.
Here's a guy who probably wishes he was armed, and not with a SA:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video-shows-motorcyclists-pull-driver-car-beat/story?id=20419705
Single Action Defense
- Thread starter Barry the Bear
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Here's a guy who probably wishes he was armed, and not with a SA:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video-shows-motorcyclists-pull-driver-car-beat/story?id=20419705
I'd love to bet you any amount of money I can get off three shots center mass faster than you and your SA.You're really not qualified to make that statement.
Bold words (and condescending) for someone who probably hasn't fired as many rounds through a single action in your life as some here have in a month.
Funny how every time this subject comes up, it's always the guys with the least (or non-existent) experience with SA's who are the loudest naysayers.
As far as the 'bold words', they are Col. Jeff Cooper's, not mine.
Personally, I wouldn't want to die for the sake of nostalgia.
Speaking of seat belts, I'd rather have the modern three point ones than the old lap style, or none at all like when I was a kid.Same bad guys..maybe, but in the same way....Absolutely not!
The police many times are in offensive situations.
As a civilian, we aren't likely to get into protracted gun fights or pursuing "bad guys".
Certainly we aren't going to be on the offensive.
I'll tell you as a former race car driver that a full roll cage and a 5 point harness is vastly superior to a seat belt, but I doubt you'll rush out and have those installed in your daily driver. It's kind of over the top and a bit of a stretch for your average passenger vehicle. It's certainly better though.The question is... do you anticipate really needing that kind of restraint system in your drive to work or the supermarket??? Probably not. If you want to take it one more step... maybe you ought to wear a fire proof lined helmet , undies, socks and gloves for your drive to work too.. Ya never know right???
Maybe you grasp that comparison, maybe not. Different tools for different situations. I'm not a cop. I'm not part of Seal Team Six.
I'm a civilian that carries a revolver as that's what I think suits my likely needs.
You can carry a B.A.R. for all I care if you think that's what suits your needs.
R.W.Dale
Member
The range rover driver absolutely took the best course of action. His mistake was getting boxed into traffic. Getting out of a perfectly mobile vehicle to engage a GANG of bikers with one sidearm while abandoning your family to their whims would have been an exceedingly bad failure of judgment.
I'm not on the offensive as police are. Nobody is going to get in a protracted gun battle with this electric motor mechanic. In the type of engagement I'm likely to see once the threshold for deadly force is met the range will be CLOse, and someone will get shot and or be trying to get away. I have absolutely NO obligation to pursue in retaliation to said attack
I'm not on the offensive as police are. Nobody is going to get in a protracted gun battle with this electric motor mechanic. In the type of engagement I'm likely to see once the threshold for deadly force is met the range will be CLOse, and someone will get shot and or be trying to get away. I have absolutely NO obligation to pursue in retaliation to said attack
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I wouldn't bet on that.
If you don't handload, I doubt that there is any gun game you can beat me at. I'm not able to fire five shots with a single action, reload and fire five more in 17secs because I sat on the couch and read about it.
Nor would I. Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. I carry what I am most proficient with and suggest you do the same. Just do not assume that your capabilities are equal to everyone else's. In other words, folks who have not spent much time with SA's probably should not pass judgement on those who have lived and breathed with them for decades.
David E
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<sigh> ok. Five yard IPSC/IDPA target. Using one hand only, fire five shots center mass. Find average split time. This has nothing to do with how fast the first shot is, just the follow-up shots.
Use a single action revolver with defense loads or equivalent.
I'll use a .45 acp semi auto.
I didn't say he should have left the vehicle, but he would have been right to shoot the first one who broke the window and opened the door to beat him up, and however many of his 30 buddies who came after. Would you really want a SA instead of an auto in that situation? Be honest.
In that situation getting boxed into traffic was going to happen at some point, being in NYC.
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So you're counting on the city bad guy not knowing what he's doing with a gun to equalize your using an obsolete handgun?Defense against whom, exactly? "In the city" (a place I assiduously avoid) your probable bad guy assailant may well have a 15 shot fantastic plastic pistol, but also probably will have one hand holding up his baggy sports shorts, while the other hand holds his "nine" sideways and he'll have no shooting (or any other) skills whatsoever. Be aware of your situation. Don't let them get close. A single action will kill one every bit as dead as any other gun. I'd carry two, though...
"In the country", well, the odds of meeting a felonious hombre in what's left of our safer areas are ten million to one. A rabid dog, or a coyote, or a bear or something, maybe. Once again, a single action will kill one every bit as dead as any other gun.
"Against the jack booted thugs" you're gonna be met with overwhelming force and it won't matter much what you're carrying. At least maybe you can take down one or two before you're sprayed with a hail of gunfire from six or seven machine guns.
bubba in ca
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Is it a good gun , assuming an adequate caliber, .357 and up?
If it fits your hands and you are well trained in it, yes. Most SD/HD incidents are resolved within 1 or 2 shots. Reloads almost never happen. 50% of shootings happen within 10 feet, where if you miss a determined attacker with the first shot or 2, you lose.
If I were not well trained in one already, I would not chose it because there are better choices. A double action revolver is a tad quicker and more maneuverable if your hand were injured. Autos are often more concealable, especially the single stack ones. Probably nothing beets the mechanical reliability of a single action.
All of my current single actions are 22s, so they don`t fit in my SD plans. I regret selling a Hawes 44 magnum. If I still had it, it would be the backup to my HD shotgun. With 44 specials in it it was a sweet shooting reliable gun with plenty of power, no target sights to get in the way, and mechanically simple.
Combat reloads are more important for stoppages than for the need for more bullets.
If it fits your hands and you are well trained in it, yes. Most SD/HD incidents are resolved within 1 or 2 shots. Reloads almost never happen. 50% of shootings happen within 10 feet, where if you miss a determined attacker with the first shot or 2, you lose.
If I were not well trained in one already, I would not chose it because there are better choices. A double action revolver is a tad quicker and more maneuverable if your hand were injured. Autos are often more concealable, especially the single stack ones. Probably nothing beets the mechanical reliability of a single action.
All of my current single actions are 22s, so they don`t fit in my SD plans. I regret selling a Hawes 44 magnum. If I still had it, it would be the backup to my HD shotgun. With 44 specials in it it was a sweet shooting reliable gun with plenty of power, no target sights to get in the way, and mechanically simple.
Combat reloads are more important for stoppages than for the need for more bullets.
You don't think someone with an auto can fire 10 (or 15) shots in much less than 17 seconds?
And what does handloading have to do with anything?
OP
OP
Barry the Bear
Member
Sure they could, They could fire a full auto carbine even faster, Doesnt negate the fact that practice makes perfect. I can hand a normal person ANY autolader, then they shoot 100 rounds each range session once every few months and I can hand an experienced shooter whos knows his weapon more than his wife, a single action revolver and guess who'd win in firefight. Id rather have a mechanic fix car than the guy with "Cars for Dummies" book.
OK, lets say both shooters are equally proficient with their guns, if you were knowingly walking into a gunfight, you'd want your SA vs. the other guys modern auto? We all hope we could end a situation with a few shots, I suspect if we found ourselves in a real life two-way shooting range it might not go quite so smoothly.
OP
OP
Barry the Bear
Member
We already covered this. If two shooters are equal in skill with their respective weapons it would be a draw. Either two dead men, or two unharmed men depending on their skill with said weapon. Im not saying I hate or even dislike autos, But to me and several others evidently we prefer revovlers, single actions to be specific. When it comes down to it, You and I, Revolver or Auto, Mac or PC, we are on the same side vs the antis who would rather see us own NOTHING even a "lowly" single action revolver. As for the BGs or 4-legged predator debate it all goes down to what YOU can use efficiently.
You seem to be only concerned with capacity and firing as quickly as possible. The old spray and pray method.
Your point that getting as much shots off as quickly as possibly is the way to go may work for you, I just hope I am not a bystander close to you if you do ever have to unload your 15 rounds in 17 seconds.
High capacity does have its merits, but with all due respect you seem to be missing them. High capacity is needed for multiple threats. if you are unloading your gun rapid fire then that means you are either irresponsible (shooting at multiple targets too quickly) or you are a bad shot (aiming at one target but not hitting)
Lucky Derby
Member
I don't carry a SA revolver. If I put the time into practicing with one, I could see myself doing it. I love the feel of a nice Colt pattern SA.
For those who think it is to slow, do some research on Bob Munden.
I was once called slow, being the only shooter to have a DA revolver on the firing line, amid a plethora of autos. This was before we started shooting.
Not only did I finsh first, I was also one of two shooters to score perfect on the course of fire.
For those who think it is to slow, do some research on Bob Munden.
I was once called slow, being the only shooter to have a DA revolver on the firing line, amid a plethora of autos. This was before we started shooting.
Not only did I finsh first, I was also one of two shooters to score perfect on the course of fire.
PRM
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Wow.
Pissing. Contest.
If you are comfortable with a single action revolver, great. If that's what you've got, great. If you've got a bunch of time and skill and money invested in shooting them, great.
The fact remains, there are better, more advanced tools out there. Just because you are unwilling to learn how to use them doesn't make your personal selection better. If your argument is that the shooter is more important than the gun, what matters is what's between your ears, etc., then why don't you train yourself and your mind to be the best it can, and then get the best, most up-to-date gear you can?
I'm glad you have single actions and enjoy shooting them. I do, as well. However, no way am I carrying one when I have double actions or semi-autos available. Better tools, plain and simple. If one puts in the same amount of dedication and training into better equipment, better results will occur.
I saw the words "feel" and "feelings" come up a lot. Well, "feelings" are irrelevant to results. If you "feel" comfortable carrying a certain something, great. Just remember that some people "feel" comfortable carrying nothing, and how under protected might we think they are?
Pissing. Contest.
If you are comfortable with a single action revolver, great. If that's what you've got, great. If you've got a bunch of time and skill and money invested in shooting them, great.
The fact remains, there are better, more advanced tools out there. Just because you are unwilling to learn how to use them doesn't make your personal selection better. If your argument is that the shooter is more important than the gun, what matters is what's between your ears, etc., then why don't you train yourself and your mind to be the best it can, and then get the best, most up-to-date gear you can?
I'm glad you have single actions and enjoy shooting them. I do, as well. However, no way am I carrying one when I have double actions or semi-autos available. Better tools, plain and simple. If one puts in the same amount of dedication and training into better equipment, better results will occur.
I saw the words "feel" and "feelings" come up a lot. Well, "feelings" are irrelevant to results. If you "feel" comfortable carrying a certain something, great. Just remember that some people "feel" comfortable carrying nothing, and how under protected might we think they are?
I really want to comment on this. But adding to anything Craig said, is pointless. So, as long as you are completely proficient, competent, skilled, sharp, crisp, accurate, consistent, and willing to make sure you stay that way should you ever have such an encounter, then it doesn't matter.
I can tell you this though. MOST bad guys aren't concerned with proficiency of their firearms.
I can tell you this though. MOST bad guys aren't concerned with proficiency of their firearms.
What we really need is a thread about open carrying a single action. When the BG grabs it away from you and tries to shoot you with it, will he even know how it operates?
Some of the guys here really crack me up. FBI stats show the average "gun fight" is over in under 5 seconds with an average 3 shots fired, yet they act as if every encounter will rival the Miami or N. Hollywood shoot outs.
I normally carry a revolver now, but a DA one. My 5 1/2" Vaquero won't fit in my pocket.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Commitment and trigger time.
I'm sure if that's what we wanted to do, we would. However, I do NOT want to spend the time with a more socially acceptable handgun that I spend with SA's. Period. There are uses for a handgun other than self defense and for those purposes, your defensive handguns are useless.
At five yards I don't even use the sights. Now let me go spend $150 on a timer just to satisfy YOUR curiosity.
I guess it's irrelevant to you guys that when you only have five shots, you probably shouldn't be firing as fast as you can.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
That works both ways.
45_auto
Member
prm said:
No one is saying a single action won't work, the more rational posters are just pointing out that it won't work as well as a double-action or semi-auto for self defense. People who repeatedly bet their life on their firearm's performance (law enforcement and military) figured that out well over 100 years ago.
If you're not willing to learn how to use the most effective tool for a job, then obviously whatever you have will work best for you. Using a single action for self-defense is MUCH more effective than nothing, just like using a screwdriver to pound nails into a board is MUCH more effective than using your hand. That doesn't mean that the people who know how to use a hammer aren't going to be laughing at you!
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