Size then Clean or Clean then Size?

[ajandrs]

So I just started noticing some vertical scratching on my .223 cases as they come out of the sizing die, with one pretty good scratch probably 3/4" long. I'm using the LEE sizing die that came in their ultimate 4 die set. I always deprime with the LEE universal decapping die prior to cleaning, and I've mostly done all my cleaning before sizing for the sole purpose of not shoving a case up there with dirt / sand on it and ruining the die. I say mostly because early on I did a couple batches of sizing before cleaning, maybe a couple hundred cases but that was long ago and the scratches just not started showing up. I took the die apart last night and cleaned it really well and after shining a flashlight up there you can see the vertical line making the big scratch, as well as many other smaller marks.

I went out to LEE's website and found this FAQ:

"We do not recommend polishing your brass before resizing it. The oxidation and soot act as a lubricant when sizing which will make it easier for you to resize your cases. Also, clean brass tends to gall or leave deposits behind, which will build up and scratch your cases. While the scratching and scoring doesn't look pretty, it will not effect how your reloads perform at all.
If you find that your cases are being scratched and scored, you are able to correct it. Take your die apart and clean it with any available solvent, we use Hoppe's #9. Looking inside the die, you might be able to find the source of scoring. Take some fine grit sand paper and a wooden dowel and polish off the deposit. Be sure to lube the cases before trying the die again, even if they are carbide. Sometimes you are able to flake off the brass deposits using a stiff wire brush as well."

This seems counter intuitive, but it could possibly explain my problem since just about all my sizing has been on shiny, lubed brass. I did as they suggested, scrubbed the crap out of it with hoppe's 9 and a wire brush, but it made little, if any difference.

So what are you all doing? I'm going to call them today and see what they say, but I'm guessing I'll be needing to get a new die.

 

[Sky King]

I deprime my cases first, then wash them with Dawn after drying for a couple of days they're then tumbled. If I do get scratching it is usually do to me not putting enough lube on the cases before sizing. I spray lube them. I feel the dirt on a uncleaned case will scratch the die.

 

[Da Yooper]

I deprime first then clean

But that is just me

 

[joem1945]

I size/ decap and then tumble. You can polish out the scratch with lapping compound on a tight patch. Put the patch on a cleaning rod and some lapping compound. Run it in your drill for a bit. Wash It Out Really Good!! You can get lapping compound at Midway or Brownells.

 

[doubleh]

I clean mine with walnut hulls and tumbler polish from Cabelas. I include four little squares of dryer sheets in each load to catch the dirt and dust. Then I deprime and size. In all the years I've used this method including before using dryer sheets for junk collection I've never scratched a die.

 

[ajandrs]

So it seems so far that I'm in the majority who clean first. I should have also said that I use the LEE universal decapping die first to deprime, then I clean them, then resize. I just switched from a vibratory cleaner to the frankford wet tumbler and the difference is pretty incredible.

There are quite a few vertical scratches that I would call superficial, it's the 3/4" scratch that's into the brass that concerns me. If you drag your fingernail over it you'll catch your nail on it. But even LEE's FAQ answer says not to worry about them.

 

[Grumulkin]

Why clean first? I size first then clean so I get all the lube off the cases.

 

[cfullgraf]

Soot and oxidation may not be an issue but a grain of sand will put one heck of a scratch in a case.

Back when handgun cartridge resizing dies were predominantly steel, my incidences of scratching went way down when I started cleaning the cases before resizing. Lubricating cases were a requirement with steel handgun resizing dies.

Lightly polishing the die out with 400 or 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper usually removed the offending foreign object.

Currently, I usually clean rifle cases before resizing as well as afterwards. Steel resizing dies.

I cannot remember ever getting a scratch when using carbide dies. I rarely clean revolver cases before resizing but usually clean semi-auto before resizing. They touch the ground.

I then clean/polish cases again after resizing.

 

[ajandrs]

Why clean first? I size first then clean so I get all the lube off the cases.

Cleaning first ensures you're not shoving crap up into your die that could possibly damage the die. After sizing I throw my cases back into the tumbler for 10-15 minutes to take the lube off.

All that aside however, I recently started using a brass catcher so I may switch up my routine to first size / deprime (like LEE suggests), then clean only once. The brass catcher keeps all the spent brass out of the dirt and grass so picking up spare junk should be at a minimum, if not eliminated.

 

[splattergun]

I do not have scratches on my brass, at least none that bother me.

I use Lee dies. I tumble my brass for a couple hours in walnut media. Then I size/deprime.

I clean my dies every few hundred rounds for rifle, less often for pistol.

I do not use any polishes, waxes or any other chemicals in my tumbler, just a used dryer sheet or paper towel to collect dust. I do not know what interaction those chemicals might have with powders.

I spend less money and less time obsessing over polished, shiny brass, and more time building quality ammunition and shooting it.

 

[Steve in PA]

Clean, then size. Like the other poster said, stuffing a dirty, gritty case into a tight fitting die is asking for issues.

 

[springer99]

I always clean before I size cases. Rifle cases I de-prime manually before cleaning; pistol cases I don't bother with de-prime them before cleaning. I actually think the polishing media helps to minimize resizing efforts.

 

[ajandrs]

I spend less money and less time obsessing over polished, shiny brass, and more time building quality ammunition and shooting it.

I appreciate your post, but I can't determine if that was a parting shot or a harmless, though unnecessary comment. I'll go with the latter to give you the benefit of the doubt. Regardless, this post wasn't asking who can get the shiniest brass and how, nor was anyone even discussing "shiny" brass. I was simply trying to gauge how everyone else was handling their brass prep and how it could affect the sizing die. I couldn't care less about how shiny my brass is, but I do care about how clean it is and whether or not there are 3/4" long gouges in it.

Another possible cause I just realized is that this batch where I noticed the scratching was the first batch of brass that I ran through the wet tumbler, so it was noticeably cleaner and shinier than all the previous brass I've ran through my dies. It sounds like everyone commenting so far is using dry media, does anyone with wet tumbling experience have any thoughts to add? Like springer said, I'm wondering if the extremely fine dust from my walnut media was adding a tiny coating on the brass that assisted in "lubing" much like LEE claims the oxidation and soot does. But with wet tumbling they come out perfectly clean and dry.

 

[fguffey]

I tumble first; my cases are embeddable meaning if I leave dirt, grit and grime on the case when sizing there is a chance the dirt, grit and grime will be imbedded into the die. After that anything that is embedded into the die that is abrasive can scratch the die.

F. Guffey

 

[Paladin7]

I use a Lee Universal Decapping Die to de-prime all of my cases. Then I wet tumble them using a Frankford Arsenal Wet Tumbler with the stainless steel media, Dawn Dish Washing Detergent and a tablespoon of Lemmi Shine.

All of my cases come out like they are brand new and any grime, soot, sand, etc. are completely removed from the cases.

Then I process the cases and reload them.

This keeps my reloading dies clean and I've never had any issues with scratches in my dies or on my cases. My reloaded ammunition looks factory new.

Also, with this method, you get a very clear picture of the quality of your cases. If there are any splits or bulges you can immediately notice it vs trying to reload dirty cases, where these defects can be hidden.

 

[ajandrs]

I use a Lee Universal Decapping Die to de-prime all of my cases. Then I wet tumble them using a Frankford Arsenal Wet Tumbler with the stainless steel media, Dawn Dish Washing Detergent and a tablespoon of Lemmi Shine.

All of my cases come out like they are brand new and any grime, soot, sand, etc. are completely removed from the cases.

Then I process the cases and reload them.

This keeps my reloading dies clean and I've never had any issues with scratches in my dies or on my cases. My reloaded ammunition looks factory new.

Also, with this method, you get a very clear picture of the quality of your cases. If there are any splits or bulges you can immediately notice it vs trying to reload dirty cases, where these defects can be hidden.

Thanks Paladin, that's my exact process now so I'm glad to hear you are doing it with great success. I'm guessing the damage to my die was done prior to this first batch I did with my new Frankford wet tumbler. You said you use the LEE decapping die, do you also use the LEE sizing die?

I also completely agree that you get a much better look at the case after wet tumbling vs dry tumbling.

 

[GaryL]

Soot and oxidation may not be an issue but a grain of sand will put one heck of a scratch in a case.

To expand on this point, paper won't scratch steel, but sandpaper does a great job of it. Pretty easy to embed sand into brass, and have the brass take the place of the paper.

I went out to LEE's website and found this FAQ:

"We do not recommend polishing your brass before resizing it. The oxidation and soot act as a lubricant when sizing which will make it easier for you to resize your cases. Also, clean brass tends to gall or leave deposits behind, which will build up and scratch your cases. While the scratching and scoring doesn't look pretty, it will not effect how your reloads perform at all.

Dumb advice IMHO. Rifle cases need lube for sizing anyway, and grit on the case isn't doing the die any favors. Regarding pistol cases, a very small amount of Imperial Sizing Wax on every 5th - 10th case (less for 9mm, more for 38spl or 357mag) is more than enough lube.

BTW - a little lube on pistol cases improves the 'feel' during sizing.

 

[vaalpens]

Universal decapper -> clean (wash, dry, tumble) -> resize

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I always tumble clean first then decap/size all my brass. I do not decap a separate operation unless there is a military crimp in the primer pocket that needs to be dealt with.

I also don't want to send dirty brass into my expensive dies.

 

[Shaq]

I always size/deprime, then tumble. It gets most of the primer pocket clean.

 

[spitballer]

.223 neck size only: I wipe the soot off the neck and straighten out the 'ding' from the ejector before starting any other operations. The decapping operation is combined with the first sizing of the neck, and it would never occur to me to put anything less than a spotless case neck into my treasured dies. But I'm not too proud to take advice either, and if the soot is powdery enough it probably would act as a lube of sorts, even though it indeed seems counterintuitive, as posted earlier. Kind of like powdered graphite lube, maybe? Who knew?

 

[AzShooter1]

I tumble my brass, put it in the case feeder with some Hornady One Shot and then reload it. Cases are clean, the lube dissipates and it not noticed.

 

[Zendude]

Is the recommendation from Lee only for rifle cases? Depriming and resizing before cleaning would defeat the process of a progressive press.

 

[ajandrs]

Is the recommendation from Lee only for rifle cases? Depriming and resizing before cleaning would defeat the process of a progressive press.

I believe for both rifle and handgun.

I just talked to one of LEE's techs and they assured me it's brass build up and told me to use some fine grip (600 or so) emery cloth on a dowel rod to sand it out. That'll be an interesting task, not sure how well you can get a dowel and emery cloth up in there to polish it up. I like someone else's idea of putting some lapping compound on a tight patch and spinning it in there with a drill. Guess we'll see what I can come up with.

 

[W.E.G.]

I'm not about to run dirty brass into my sizing dies.

I tumble dirty brass for three hours in already-dirty walnut shells. My tumbled brass never looks "new."

Its clean enough, and I don't mess up my dies with range crud.

I use a water-soluble lube that washes off in hot water.
Cases, that don't require lube, don't get washed.