SKS Accuracy

[AK103K]

I dont care what kind of rifle you have, or how accurate you say it is, you will always be at the mercy of the ammo youre using. Most military ammo is spec'd at around 2-3moa (and thats a "mean" radius figure, not diameter). Im not saying you wont get lots here and there that will shoot better, you usually do, but overall, you will get more lots that live up to it.

I have an AR that has literally shot one holers on more than one occasion at 100 yards, and usually will shoot 0.25-0.50 groups prone of a bipod 99% of the time, when using my reloads that it likes. If I switch to USGI issue ammo the very next mag, 2-3" groups would be a "good" average of what to expect, and no matter how hard you try.

Ive had similar experiences with a Remington 700 Varmint in .308. Reloads tuned to the gun shoot 0.5" or better, GI ball, 2-3" the very next target.

Ive seen it as well with my .308 Springfield National match M1A's, and in 30-06 and .308 out of my NM M1's. "Match" grade ammo, or precision reloads, tuned to the guns, normally shoot better than factory or issue ammo.

Rifles of known accuracy potential, dont live up to that potential, with ammo that isnt loaded to their capabilities. No matter how bad you want different, thats just the way it is. If youre if your using random/unknown ammo, and not using ammo/loads tuned to the gun, that have a history with that gun, you really cant make a claim to accuracy.

Oh, and as far as "skills" go, you do have to wonder sometimes about some of the claims you often hear. 100 yard 2" offhand groups are a challenge for accomplished shooters with match grade rifles, and doing so on a regular basis with something like an SKS, AR, AK, etc, shooting standard grade ammo, or even reloads matched to the gun, is something Id have to see to believe.

Id be willing to bet that "most" people couldnt do it with their favorite rifle "on demand". Then again, you usually dont see what most claim they can do, if you ask them to do it "right now". What you might have done once isnt a true example of what you and the gun can do. What you can do on demand, is, and thats what you have to live with.

 

[LRShooting]

It would be Chinese, the Japanese never made SKS's.

And 2" with an SKS and open sights is pretty good.

Yea, well that tells you how much I actually know about the gun lol. I just have one and know its military. As far as grouping, I think its more of a gun capability than having iron sights. A good rest with consistent use of sights will provide good results as long as the gun will do the rest. The only way to really test accuracy of the actual gun would be off a vice I am assuming...Don't take my word for it though. I don't have any experience doing it.

 

[grimjaw]

Personally, I do not do well with the stock sights on the SKS. My eyes aren't that great. The best I could reliably do, using plain old imported, bulk ammo was 4-5 MOA from a seated rest. With a peep sight mounted at the rear of the receiver or an optic bolted to the receiver and not the receiver cover, I could move that up to maybe 2-3 MOA at best.

For awhile, I had a CZ527 in 7.62x39 that would outshoot any SKS I'd had (or would eventually have), using the same ammo. There'd usually be a guy on the line with a tricked-out AR15 type that could print a quarter inside my group, and a guy with a match rifle in .22 that could stay inside a dime. It is probably easier to find a more accurate bolt action that it is to find a more accurate SKS.

 

[Cee Zee]

You won't know what your SKS can do until you *properly* scope it, and use quality ammo. Ammo is the single biggest factor, in my experience.

I totally agree about the ammo. You get a set amount of accuracy from the Russian ammo. There are better types of ammo around that didn't come from the US though. The old brass case ammo from the 90's seems to be a lot more accurate than the steel case stuff.

Scopes are another matter. It's very hard to scope a SKS and do it well. About the only choices are replacing the rear iron sight and mounting a scout type scope. Or you can drill holes in the side of the receiver and mount a scope there. But that makes it very hard to get a good cheek weld since you're trying to aim down the side of the rifle. Neither option is great IMO and the dust cover mounts are never going to stay in place. So I wouldn't bother trying to put a scope on an SKS. They're built for fast action shooting anyway IMO and a scope defeats that purpose.

There is certainly a wide variation in the quality of the SKS's out in the real world. I based my opinion on an SKS in top condition and one that was built as close to the original design as possible. And it has to have the trigger in good condition. That's the kind of SKS that can shoot a fairly tight group (for the type of rifle it is). So basically I'm talking best case scenario here but there are lots of models around that fit that bill.

 

[cougar1717]

I once shot a friend's russian SKS. The only thing He did to it was put an aftermarket front sight on it. Rested, with Wolf ammo, it shot 6" at 50yds. I'm glad to hear that not all of them are like that.

 

[futurerider103]

I shoot mine iron sights off a rest on a 12 inch plate at 550yds no problem. At 50yds I can touch holes in 5 shot groups

 

[Hollowdweller]

I have a Yugo M59 that shoots well (out of about 5 SKS I own) but no where near a bolt action.

 

[Lj1941]

My Russian SKS shoots a good shotgun pattern at 100 yards.I am not the worlds greatest shot but it is horrible with cheap Russian HP ammo. I have some soft point boxer primed ammo that I haven't tried yet. It will no doubt shoot better than the Russian ammo. How much better I really don't know.I have dies but no loadable brass. I am sure some good handloads will improve the accuracy. It is on my list of things to do to shoot the reloadable ammo and see if I can get it at least passable in accuracy.:banghead:

 

[montanaoffroader]

My Norinco SKS is capable of 2-3 inch groups with decent ammo. I've logged a couple of 1.5 groups but that is certainly not the norm. The Yugo 59/66 shot a bit bigger group, usually in the 3-4 inch range.

I didn't spend as much time trying to shrink the groups on the Yugo as I let a friend talk me out of it.

I've seen plenty of SKS rifles in action, some shoot really well and some don't. One of my friends picked up a $79 model (pinned barrel, stamped guard) and it regularly shot 2 inch groups with Bear ammo. Another friend with the same type rifle had trouble getting 4-5 inch groups.

 

[dprice3844444]

http://www.kivaari.com/ sks trigger jobs

 

[d2wing]

It is amazing how well some guys shoot on these forums. They should get over to Russia quick and show the World Champions how to shoot.

 

[AK103K]

It is amazing how well some guys shoot on these forums.

Since we're discussing SKS's/AK's, maybe its a metric conversion thing. 10cm's = 1" right?

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Many have sworn 2" groups at 100 yards with the SKS. Mine did 8-12" at 100 yards. LOL... Most semi-autos are just fine 1-3" at 100 yards, which is not bad. The SKS and AK are probably the most likely to stray beyond the 3" mark. Never shot a Mini-14, but I've heard many of those aren't so great, either.

 

[AK103K]

The AK's can do it without to much trouble, the SKS too, if you put the time in to learn how they shoot, and they have ammo they like. From what Ive personally seen, especially around here, most base their skills on what they do of a bench, and would have difficulty doing the same, on demand, from a field position.

This was shot at 100 yards from a cross legged sitting position with one of my AK's with an Aimpoint mounted. Ammo, Barnaul 125 grain SP's. To give a size reference, the "head" on the targets is 6"x6".....



This one was offhand.....



These were 2 second "snap shots" from a low ready, 50 yards right, 100 yards left......




This was shot at 200 yards with my SAR1 using the (slightly canted) stock iron sights, with Wolf 154 grain SP's. The lower group was fired from a rest to confirm zero, the upper, from a cross legged sitting position at a steady cadence. That lower group is right around 3" at 200 yards, something many will swear is not possible with an AK. Trust me, its not the guns fault if it wont, if it has ammo it likes, and youre a reasonably competent shooter.



Again, the head is 6"x6", if you cant read the rule.

And so you know its not a fluke, this was a target previous while chasing zero....



The only target I have that was shot with an SKS was this one at 25 yards, again from sitting. The dot is I believe, about 1.5", so you can get an idea as to what to expect at 100.

 

[Cee Zee]

http://www.kivaari.com/ sks trigger jobs

Excellent suggestion. People don't realize how much difference having the trigger right on an SKS can make on the accuracy. It cut my group size in half when I had Kivaari fix the trigger on my Norinco.

They should get over to Russia quick and show the World Champions how to shoot.

You're the expert. You said you were anyway. You do it.

 

[AK103K]

People don't realize how much difference having the trigger right on an SKS can make on the accuracy.

Unless you have an odd ball gun that has an unacceptable trigger, I really dont see whats to be gained in doing a trigger job on an SKS, or an AK either, for that matter. They usually have decent triggers, especially when compared to stock AR triggers.

Another issue can be the safety issue that often comes in with "worked" triggers, and you can often end up with a gun that isnt really safe for "normal" use, and one that is relegated to strictly a bench/range type gun.

It seems anymore, the American public is often trigger phobic when it comes down to it, and if for whatever reason its not some super tuned lightweight trigger, its not acceptable. Must be "XBox" syndrome.

From what Ive seen over the years, its not the gun thats usually the issue when there is one, and a "match" grade gun in the hands of someone who isnt a shooter at the level it might make a difference, wont make them one.

You're the expert. You said you were anyway. You do it.

There have been some pretty "distinguished expert offhand" claims made here using SKS's, and I dont think d2wing was to far off in his comment.

If they are in fact shooing 2" 100 yard offhand groups "on demand" with an SKS, they should be shooting in the Olympics.

 

[Cee Zee]

Unless you have an odd ball gun that has an unacceptable trigger, I really dont see whats to be gained in doing a trigger job on an SKS, or an AK either, for that matter. They usually have decent triggers, especially when compared to stock AR triggers.

Another issue can be the safety issue that often comes in with "worked" triggers, and you can often end up with a gun that isnt really safe for "normal" use, and one that is relegated to strictly a bench/range type gun.

You don't see what a trigger working well has to do with accuracy? You and who else? Nobody is modifying the triggers when you send them to Kivaari. He fixes them back to original specs. And as for safety, I guarantee they will be safer after he fixes them. You really should find a good SKS board and learn just how wrong your comments are.

What's with you people who like to make claims about others shooting ability when you can't possibly know what you're saying is true? To begin with I never said I shot 2" groups off hand. That might be a good place for you to re-think your comments.

Just how do you know who should be shooting in the Olympics and who shouldn't? You think there are no great shooters on boards like this? No I'm not a great shooter but I do know some and they do post on boards just like this one.

Just some facts for you. Kivaari does not lighten triggers by modifying them. He does not make them unsafe. In fact he fixes well known safety issues with the SKS. Why don't you go to his website and read what he does for yourself instead of assuming things that are totally wrong? Here's a quote from his site:

"My goal is to improve the safety of as many of the SKS carbines out there as possible for my shooting friends, increase their enjoyment of the rifle, and improve the militia's marksmanship!"

http://www.kivaari.com/SKS Target Match.htm

If that doesn't satisfy you check out the testimonials on the SKS board at:

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=a7cb8f5d9573753c9b8c4ac245b589ce&board=62.0

I don't understand why people make comments like yours without doing basic research. Kivaari is one of the most well known people in the shooting industry. His work is almost legendary. Yet you assume he's making triggers unsafe. You obviously don't know that many SKS triggers are unsafe when you get them because they weren't set to specs when they were built. There are known issues with them and Kivaari fixes them. The most well known problem with the triggers is negative engagement. That's a condition where the hammer and sear creep towards the position where they break and strike the firing pin. If they creep too far the rifle can go off with a hard bump. It's not all that common for it to happen but it can happen with rifles with extreme amounts of negative engagement. We all know what a ND can do to someone who makes a mistake on the rules of carrying a firearm. People can die quickly from that situation.

Kivaari has been fixing this problem for many years. There are hundreds if not thousands of testimonials around the net that prove the value of his work. You could have learned that with 30 seconds of research before you posted. Not all of those testimonials are on Kivaari's web site or his section on the SKS board. There are people in this thread besides me that mentioned his work.

So please let's all be civil and not be so quick to make insinuations. There's never been a rider that couldn't be "throwed" or a horse that couldn't be rode. You don't know who you're talking to on this board 99% of the time. To make the kind of claims you made you'd have to see every rifle shot by every shooter. If you notice there are quite a few people here who said they could shoot their SKS accurately. But somehow you know that all those people are wrong. That or you happen to be omniscient.

 

[trueg50]

I can vouch for Kivaari, he is great, and unlike a lot of youtube videos on the subject, he actually makes the trigger safe while improving it (albeit as much as he can given the parts and system).

 

[AK103K]

You don't see what a trigger working well has to do with accuracy? You and who else? Nobody is modifying the triggers when you send them to Kivaari. He fixes them back to original specs. And as for safety, I guarantee they will be safer after he fixes them. You really should find a good SKS board and learn just how wrong your comments are.

What I was referring to was the stock triggers Ive personally shot, on most military type riles, were not at all bad, and I saw no need to modify anything. That goes for SKS's and AK's as well.

Im not sure I understand what you mean by "not working well". Every SKS Ive shot, has had a pretty decent trigger, and worked as it was supposed to. How did yours not?

You say in one breath no one is modifying anything, and in the next, that he is. It cant be both. Im a little confused as to why the triggers would not be in spec, if they were not otherwise modified (from what I read on that website, it sounded like a sales pitch for his trigger jobs to me, just like most others Ive read who do that type work). What makes the trigger unacceptable that they arent shootable?

Im basing my comments on my personal experience with SKS's Ive owned and shot, and none had trigger or safety issues, or at least I didnt find either to be an issue. Sorry, but I was never a rabid SKS fan, so I never followed all the things I was supposed to do to them to try and make then something they werent. I just shot them, more or less how they were meant to be used. Just really how common is the safety issue? This is the first Ive heard of it, and Ive been shooting them since the 80's. Then again, I wasnt looking to really modify them, which probably kept me from wandering into someones sales pitch to know I "needed it".

What's with you people who like to make claims about others shooting ability when you can't possibly know what you're saying is true? To begin with I never said I shot 2" groups off hand. That might be a good place for you to re-think your comments.

"You" made the claims, and now seem annoyed that someone questioned you.

Go back and read through this post, and you do make some claims as to youre personal offhand ability, and 2"-3" was stated and insinuated.

I know this is the internet and all, and everyone is a crack shot, but its just been my experience that when youre at the range with someone, their often stated abilities "usually" dont live up to the hype. Youre only as good as what you can do "on demand" at any given moment, and not what you did "once" when all the stars aligned.

I shoot all manner of things on a pretty regular basis, and have spent a good bit of time shooting HP and military type matches over the years, so I have a fair idea of what realistic and likely. Personally, 2"-3" at 100 yards offhand with an SKS or AK (or most other things for that matter) using their iron sights, even with ammo they like, isnt the "norm", and can often be a challenge, when shot from more stable positions, even a bench.

Just how do you know who should be shooting in the Olympics and who shouldn't? You think there are no great shooters on boards like this? No I'm not a great shooter but I do know some and they do post on boards just like this one.

The ones who made the grade are, those who didnt, were cut. Its as simple as that. If you didnt try, then we'll never know, and it doesnt matter.

There are great shooters everywhere, and Im sure we all know someone who can do amazing things. I know a couple for sure. Some do better under pressure than others, and thats where the difference often comes in. If youre the great shot you think you are, then enter some of the matches, and prove it.

Just some facts for you. Kivaari does not lighten triggers by modifying them.

I did go and read Kivaari's site and info. We must have read or understood things differently. What I read was this....."With my match/target SKS trigger work, you get it all--- safety, clear 2 stage operation, lowered pull, much less creep, smoothness, repeatability, consistency and give up nothing".

Sounds like a "trigger job" to me, and not restoring it to factory specs.

He may well do great work, and Im not, or wasnt saying he didnt, just that "many" trigger jobs, often do put the gun in a category of "not safe for anything but target work", and should not be used as a "working" gun. Lowering the pull weight to me, means you have to pay attention to whats been done, and if that weight is acceptable for real world use. Real world to some is the games or target ranges, and to others, its actual use on and off the range.

So please let's all be civil and not be so quick to make insinuations.

By all means, and lets include "certain claims of accuracy" in there as well, and things will probably go smoother, as uncomfortable questions wont come up.

 

[itsa pain]

i always thought i am fairly good at shooting. i spent 7 hours at the range with .22s, 12 ga, a russian sks, and a chinese sks. all iron sites and bench rest. as far as the sks, i found the chinese and wolf fmj where the best combo. at 100 yards i get 4" or 5" groups at best. my russian sks isn't as good and tula ammo isn't as good. at 150 yards i managed to get 9 hits out of 15 shots on a standard poster board. LARGE GROUPING. i quit at that point.

im just not that good or other posters here have that internet exaggeration going on. or they used match ammo they didn't mention?

i figured a scope on the sks would improve things but i'll get a bolt action or break open rifle with scope for long distance.

I think you got real world results and could get better if you felt like hand loading. The other stories about 2" groups well..........

 

[itsa pain]

You don't see what a trigger working well has to do with accuracy? You and who else? Nobody is modifying the triggers when you send them to Kivaari. He fixes them back to original specs. And as for safety, I guarantee they will be safer after he fixes them. You really should find a good SKS board and learn just how wrong your comments are.

What's with you people who like to make claims about others shooting ability when you can't possibly know what you're saying is true? To begin with I never said I shot 2" groups off hand. That might be a good place for you to re-think your comments.

Just how do you know who should be shooting in the Olympics and who shouldn't? You think there are no great shooters on boards like this? No I'm not a great shooter but I do know some and they do post on boards just like this one.

Just some facts for you. Kivaari does not lighten triggers by modifying them. He does not make them unsafe. In fact he fixes well known safety issues with the SKS. Why don't you go to his website and read what he does for yourself instead of assuming things that are totally wrong? Here's a quote from his site:

"My goal is to improve the safety of as many of the SKS carbines out there as possible for my shooting friends, increase their enjoyment of the rifle, and improve the militia's marksmanship!"

http://www.kivaari.com/SKS Target Match.htm

If that doesn't satisfy you check out the testimonials on the SKS board at:

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=a7cb8f5d9573753c9b8c4ac245b589ce&board=62.0

I don't understand why people make comments like yours without doing basic research. Kivaari is one of the most well known people in the shooting industry. His work is almost legendary. Yet you assume he's making triggers unsafe. You obviously don't know that many SKS triggers are unsafe when you get them because they weren't set to specs when they were built. There are known issues with them and Kivaari fixes them. The most well known problem with the triggers is negative engagement. That's a condition where the hammer and sear creep towards the position where they break and strike the firing pin. If they creep too far the rifle can go off with a hard bump. It's not all that common for it to happen but it can happen with rifles with extreme amounts of negative engagement. We all know what a ND can do to someone who makes a mistake on the rules of carrying a firearm. People can die quickly from that situation.

Kivaari has been fixing this problem for many years. There are hundreds if not thousands of testimonials around the net that prove the value of his work. You could have learned that with 30 seconds of research before you posted. Not all of those testimonials are on Kivaari's web site or his section on the SKS board. There are people in this thread besides me that mentioned his work.

So please let's all be civil and not be so quick to make insinuations. There's never been a rider that couldn't be "throwed" or a horse that couldn't be rode. You don't know who you're talking to on this board 99% of the time. To make the kind of claims you made you'd have to see every rifle shot by every shooter. If you notice there are quite a few people here who said they could shoot their SKS accurately. But somehow you know that all those people are wrong. That or you happen to be omniscient.

What good would wasting money on a trigger job for an SKS possibly do to make the gun more accurate? They have perfectly fine triggers and you cannot turn a battle rifle made with tolerances to work in mud and snow into a match gun with a trigger job when they are really 3-5 inch guns. I shot tiny groups with the Savage heavy barrels made in early 90's and you needed a come along to pull the trigger.

 

[Cee Zee]

Im not sure I understand what you mean by "not working well". Every SKS Ive shot, has had a pretty decent trigger, and worked as it was supposed to. How did yours not?

You clearly haven't shot a Kivaari fixed trigger. They are not modified. They are set to the original specs. Big difference. And very few SKS rifles are set to actual specs so what you have shot is nothing like a trigger that has been fixed by Kivaari.

Look you think you know everything but you don't even know the issues. You made this wild claim about making rifles unsafe and didn't bother backing down from it. You don't know what you're talking about and you aren't interested in learning. So have a nice day and welcome to my kill filter..

Oh and my EXACT quote was, "Shooting off hand I can do 3" groups probably." There's nothing in what I said about 2" groups despite your pathetic attempt at putting words in my mouth. I didn't uphold what someone else said. I don't know what he can do. I just know what I can do. And you don't. Bye.

 

[back40]

3" groups at 100 yds with a an sks and factory irons is pretty impressive.

i'm sure kivaari's work is top notch, but if you read his site it says nothing of "setting to original specs". it says he basically works the trigger to wring out thefull potential of the design, that isn't achieved due to hasty assembly. pretty much the same thing any smith does with a factory trigger of any mfr. a "trigger job".

 

[AK103K]

You clearly haven't shot a Kivaari fixed trigger. They are not modified. They are set to the original specs.

Maybe you should go read what he says is done to the triggers again and let it sink in.

If its modified, which it is if its tuned, then its not set to the original specs. He states that in his literature. He even lists it as a "target/match" trigger, and that certainly isnt factory spec.

You made this wild claim about making rifles unsafe and didn't bother backing down from it.

Nothing wild about it, over the years, Ive personally encountered more than a couple of modified rifles and handguns that were either flat out unsafe, or unsafe for "normal" use, due to "trigger jobs". Im sure if you ask around here, you'll find Im not the only one.

You don't know what you're talking about and you aren't interested in learning.

Obviously.

Oh and my EXACT quote was, "Shooting off hand I can do 3" groups probably." There's nothing in what I said about 2" groups despite your pathetic attempt at putting words in my mouth.

"

Quote:
2-3 inch offhand groups with a SKS are pure bull

I love it when people assume things they can't know. You weren't there the last time I shot my SKS at 100 yards. At least I didn't see you there. Were you hiding in the weeds? "
That was you responding here, right? Not my words.

2", 3", either way, I tend to agree with d2wing's post, even if you dont.

Tell me where you shoot, and Ill hide in the bushes, so you wont feel under pressure to make those groups when you shoot.

Better yet, bring that "match modified" SKS down to the next Appleseeed/CMP/HP shoot, and lets see how you do.

I just know what I can do. And you don't.

I only know what youre telling us, and some of us are skeptical.

 

[Cee Zee]

if you read his site it says nothing of "setting to original specs"

It said that when I sent mine in a few years ago. Things change I guess. It's still essentially what he's doing and it is not just the work of any gunsmith. He is setting the rifle to the original specs according to the design. Not many left the factory set the way they should be because they were essentially built by unskilled peasant labor. It was tricky to get it right in the factory and it still is. He sets things up according to the design specs. To me that's setting the trigger to the original specs and I've seen lots of other people say the same thing.

Most rifles don't require the kind of fine tuning an SKS does the way I've read things. Kivaari is known far and wide for doing a better job than anyone else. I'm sure there are others that can do a fine job but not many have spent the time to learn how to work those triggers the way he has. Tom has been doing this for many, many years. I first learned of his work in the 1990's. It was over 5 years ago I had my trigger worked on by him. I'm sure I would have trouble finding the quotes from that time period that I read but I remember it pretty well.

Anyone interested should read this thread on another board for testimonials and details on what is done. I'm not arguing the point here any further.

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=2845.0