SKS Accuracy

[back40]

what you say he does...

He is setting the rifle to the original specs

what he says he does...

With my match/target SKS trigger work, you get it all--- safety, clear 2 stage operation, lowered pull, much less creep, smoothness, repeatability, consistency and give up nothing, well, a few bucks. Each trigger group is different and each one must be done individually; there are no "jigs" or systems that will allow a sear/hammer to be cut for one that will work optimally for another. These are all done by hand for maximized results.

extracting the potential from the design

not a single mention of original specs. sounds just like what many good smiths do to factory triggers all the time.

no doubt it would benefit the accuracy of the sks, as does any finely tuned trigger to any rifle.

 

[AK103K]

He is setting the rifle to the original specs according to the design.

Hmmm, I wonder what specs all those factories, in all those different countries making them were using when they built them, if they werent the correct design specs?

I wonder why my SKS's, and the others Ive shot that werent mine, all seemed to work fine as they came? Must have been a fluke, eh?

Not many left the factory set the way they should be because they were essentially built by unskilled peasant labor.

So essentially what youre saying is, the SKS is a piece of junk, and you need to dump good money after bad to try and rectify things? Is that the jist of it?


Aww, I see. Youre just funnin us and making all this stuff up, aint'cha?

Most rifles don't require the kind of fine tuning an SKS does the way I've read things.

I would hope not. From what Ive seen personally, the SKS's dont need it either, but hey, we've all tried to get that lipstick and wig to stick on that pig at some point, and tried to convince our buddies, its our girl.

 

[Davek1977]

3" groups at 100 yds with a an sks and factory irons is pretty impressive.

I'd even go so far as to qualify that with "from a solid rest." Offhand, 3 in, 100 yd groups with an SKS is, in a word, amazing shooting. Like most things I find amazing, it would take more than someone simply stating they could do it for me to believe it, especially having owned and shot SKS rifles, and having some realistic knowledge of what the average one shoots like.

 

[itsa pain]

It said that when I sent mine in a few years ago. Things change I guess. It's still essentially what he's doing and it is not just the work of any gunsmith. He is setting the rifle to the original specs according to the design. Not many left the factory set the way they should be because they were essentially built by unskilled peasant labor. It was tricky to get it right in the factory and it still is. He sets things up according to the design specs. To me that's setting the trigger to the original specs and I've seen lots of other people say the same thing.

Most rifles don't require the kind of fine tuning an SKS does the way I've read things. Kivaari is known far and wide for doing a better job than anyone else. I'm sure there are others that can do a fine job but not many have spent the time to learn how to work those triggers the way he has. Tom has been doing this for many, many years. I first learned of his work in the 1990's. It was over 5 years ago I had my trigger worked on by him. I'm sure I would have trouble finding the quotes from that time period that I read but I remember it pretty well.

Anyone interested should read this thread on another board for testimonials and details on what is done. I'm not arguing the point here any further.

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=2845.0

Wow all I have to do with my 5 inch group SKS is send it off for a trigger job and it will go to a 2 inch gun. I have never saw an SKS with a defective trigger nor have I ever heard f it in 30 years. The triggers are excellent as they come for the rifle.

 

[chicharrones]

I am curious how the "two-stage" Kivaari trigger feels and what is meant mechanically by the two stages? Are there two angles cut on the sear, or is it just the way the sear drags?

On my Norinco, if you pull the trigger slow enough to feel each step of creep, it had three "stages" originally. That means it went, drag-drag-drag-bang.

Then I did my own trigger work on my Norinco SKS with the Wolff springs, filing, and polishing a few years ago. I always err on the side of safety, but what I ended up with is a two "stage" trigger that goes, drag-drag-bang. It still has positive engagement with the hammer moving backwards before letting go. The downside is the Wolff hammer spring won't set off steel case ammo more than 90% of the time. I really need to reinstall the original SKS hammer spring.

The thing is, I never equated separate SKS trigger drag movements as stages like on other triggers with two stages.

 

[esque]

Chicharrones,
It sounds like you have the 27 lb spring
for commercial soft primmer ammo.
Wolff has a 31 lb spring that works well
for the commercial soft primmer and the
import hard primmer. The original spring
is 34 lb.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I shoot 3" groups with my 16" SKS Paratrooper from the bench using stock iron sights and Yugo surplus ammo. This particular SKS has a pitted bore.

 

[d2wing]

For clarification, many claims on made on the internet that are unlikely. Group sizes and ranges are frequently misstated and a poster recently caught misstating on another forum.
I will believe some of the stories when I see them myself or are in a well witnessed sanctioned competition. To the person that claims to have beaten me in competition, that is a pure fabrication. I would be willing shoot against you. Currently I am working on a .22 Rimfire.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

3" groups at 100 yards on the internet is usually 3" at 50-75 yards after throwing out the "fliers" in person.....Groups sizes are often shooting fish tales.

 

[Cee Zee]

To the person that claims to have beaten me in competition, that is a pure fabrication.

So it doesn't matter when someone shoots better than you? You still don't believe them? It must be awful to be so negative about the world.

paranoia - 2. baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paranoia

I've proven people like you wrong so often it isn't funny. But they never believe it even when they see it. So I'm not wasting my time with it. Welcome to my kill filter. Have a nice day.

 

[AK103K]

So it doesn't matter when someone shoots better than you? You still don't believe them?

I think what matters in this case, is the fact that "you" claimed to me, that you beat them in a match, and I was told by the person you claimed to beat, that the match never took place, they never shot against you, and they have no idea who you are.

Making stuff up doesnt bode well for your credibility.

I've proven people like you wrong so often it isn't funny. But they never believe it even when they see it.

Probably becasue it never happened.

 

[d2wing]

Thank you AK103, I do not know what your problem is Cee Zee but I have never met you , or shot against you and you have never beat me in any competition as you claim. Are you related to Obama or what? As others have said, you credibility is sadly lacking.

 

[chicharrones]

It's obvious we need a High Road SKS match. I'll put up my lack of shooting prowess against anybody. Especially if they happen to be in my town at a nearby range.

Sorry, can't travel to places like Camp Perry.

 

[AK103K]

It's obvious we need a High Road SKS match. I'll put up my lack of shooting prowess against anybody.

Me too. Sounds like fun.

That would quickly bring reality to a head.

How many do you think will actually show up?

 

[shafter]

There are plenty of accurate semiautos out there. AR15's, M1 Garands, and M1A's can all be plenty accurate depending on the ammo and the shooter. At least for all practical purposes.

I don't think SKSs have ever been known for their accuracy but inside of a hundred yards I think it would have enough accuracy for hunting or self defense without a doubt.

 

[powder]

Meh, gramps is kinda correct: SKSs will probably never touch a bolt gun.

However, SKSs are NOT to be grouped with ALL semi-auto rifles, either.

Had a Norinco which was pretty decent cold bore, first 2 shots, and after that it was pray/spray-which is what it was designed for. Not accuracy, but for running lead in a certain direction.

 

[Kayaker 1960]

Accurate enough for the internet?

I'm not going so far as to say that some of you guys exaggerate a lot. I don't own an SKS, AK or AR. I once owned a Mini 14 and sold it because 10" groups at 100 yards is just boring to me. Whenever I've been to a range I pretty much only see people shooting AK's and SKS's at the 25-50 yard line and the groups are nothing that I would brag about with a pistol. If I ever see a 3" 100 yard group in person I'll buy rush right out and buy me one of those guns.

 

[AK103K]

Whenever I've been to a range I pretty much only see people shooting AK's and SKS's at the 25-50 yard line and the groups are nothing that I would brag about with a pistol.

I understand what youre saying here, and Ive seen the same thing. I think a lot of that has to do with how they are shooting them, and more often than not, they arent striving for accuracy. Bump fire and mag dumps were all the rage there for awhile. With most semi "hi cap" guns, "trigger control" often becomes an accuracy issue.

I once owned a Mini 14 and sold it because 10" groups at 100 yards is just boring to me.

I had one of them once too back in the 80's. I got it used, maybe it was yours.

The older Mini's were kind of hit or miss. I had one that shot really well group wise, but different lots of ammo would shoot all over the place, and not the same POA.

My buddy has a couple of the new Mini's, and they shoot pretty much like the AR's. They have cleaned up their act a good bit.

I currently have a number of AR's and AK's, and if youre shooting "target" style, the AR's win hands down. No doubt about it, they just make the better "target" rifle, especially the rifles set up that way.

If you compare a "stock" AR and "stock" AK, with a good red dot mounted on them, and shoot them a little more realistically, the hits on people type targets are very similar out to 200 yards or so.

If I ever see a 3" 100 yard group in person I'll buy rush right out and buy me one of those guns.

I dont think 3"-4" at 100 yards, with a resonable shooter, shooting deliberately from a good field position, is an unreasonable expectation with an SKS or an AK, shooting ammo it likes. I think the guns are capable of it. What you feed them, and/or who is doing the shooting, is more of an issue.

Shooting that off hand on a regular basis, is another story, ammo or not.

 

[back40]

Shooting that off hand on a regular basis, is another story, ammo or not.

Seems like more of a tall tale to me.

 

[AK103K]

Hey, a blind squirrel finds finds the bull once in awhile.

If he can do it on demand, thats Yoda, or one of my old Sensei's shooting withone hand, while clapping with the other. You know that sound, dont you?

 

[Cee Zee]

I don't think SKSs have ever been known for their accuracy

Actually they were. The first time I ever heard of an SKS was on the local tv channel news. A sheriff got shot right between the eyes with one. They went on for 5 minutes about an accurate rifle being sold dirt cheap with dirt cheap ammo to go with it. I went out and bought one not long after that. And lots of people talked about their accuracy at that time.

You know I feel sorry for all these net experts that think they can tell how someone shoots without seeing it. I've proven a lot of them wrong but there's always some guy that thinks that because they can't do it then no one can. It's a waste of time trying to educate you people. You might learn something if you paid attention. I've seen people that haven't been shooting for any time at all telling some of the best shooters on earth they couldn't do what they said they could do. Those shooters generally leave because of that crap. They can't tell the truth because they just get called a liar over and over. I've won a lot of shooting competitions in my life. I'll leave it at that. I truly believe that most of you can't shoot 3" groups at 100 yards even off a rest. Maybe I'll drag out my video cameras and shoot some video of me shooting my SKS when the weather breaks. Until then I'm done with this thread. The people who assume everyone shoots like them aren't worth the hassle. Have a nice day. Goodbye.

One last thing:

Shooting that off hand on a regular basis, is another story, ammo or not.

I think an SKS is about a perfect rifle for shooting off hand. It's short and the weight is back against you allowing you to hold a tighter aim. Then there's the use of a strap and doing that right. Most people have no idea how to use one. Then there's the fact that I learned to shoot off hand and was laughed at by my brothers if I ever tried to use a rest. They still do that. I've seen them shoot things that would make most people's heads spin around like in the Exorcist. Shooting off hand is something that is learned over many years of practice. If you want to be a successful hunter you must know how to shoot off hand. I've shot bats flying through the air off hand. I've shot very small birds the same way. No I don't shoot birds unless they are a nuisance and that bird was one. Most of these people have never shot anywhere near the number of rounds I've shot in my life and most of my shooting was off hand. If you can hit a running squirrel in the head off hand then you'll know what I'm talking about. I don't doubt there are some good shooters around. But most of the ones here are range shooters. I was 55 years old before I ever set foot on a range. I grew up a hillbilly and the first thing a hillbilly has to know is how to shoot off hand. Let's talk about what shotgun shooters do when they shoot clays. I grew up on a trap range. Not only is that all off hand but it's point shooting. And I've seen video of guys shooting clays at 100 yards. Yes that's the same distance we're talking, with a shotgun, at a flying target that's 4" across and of course it's all off hand.

Too many people are limited in their thinking around here. Just remember the fact you can't do it is not evidence no one can do it. I certainly can't shoot clays at 100 yards. Not many can. But my targets aren't flying through the air either.

 

[chicharrones]

I truly believe that most of you can't shoot 3" groups at 100 yards even off a rest.

You're right. I've never had the success of shooting groups like that at that distance with my SKS off a rest. Off a rest with other guns, it's not usually a problem to beat my Norinco. But, I only have that one SKS and a Yugo SKS (a friend of mine has) as a sample pool.

 

[fteter]

Speaking strictly from my own experience - not a super soldier or expert marksman, just a run-of-the-mill shooter.

My SKS is Chinese. Under ideal conditions, the accuracy is all I could ask for out to 150 yards. 2 - 3 inch groupings. Misses are typically the fault of the shooter rather than the rifle or the ammo. Just shooting Tula...nothing special. Iron sights, bench rest.

I also shoot a Mosin Nagant M44. Past 150, the bolt-action Mosin is much...and I mean MUCH...more accurate than the SKS. Shooting Russian milsurp in the Mosin, again nothing special. My Mosin groupings match those of the SKS at 150 yards. Longer ranges really point out the differences. The Mosin holds 4 - 6 inch groups out to 250 yards (after that my eyes crap out). Again, iron sights and bench rest. I'm just happy to hit paper with the SKS at that distance.

Can't speak for all bolts versus all semi-autos. But, in terms of accuracy, my experience has been that the bolt-action M44 is much more accurate than the SKS at ranges exceeding 150 yards.

BTW, I agree with Cee Zee that the SKS is a real hoot to shoot off-hand. Fun, fun, and more fun! Great for moving and shooting as well.

 

[AK103K]

I think an SKS is about a perfect rifle for shooting off hand. It's short and the weight is back against you allowing you to hold a tighter aim. Then there's the use of a strap and doing that right. Most people have no idea how to use one.

"You just keep talkin Butch...." That hole is getting deeper and deeper.

Since youre the expert match shooter, I would have thought you'd know that a sling isnt permitted in the offhand stage. Your skills are based on free hand shooting, with no supplemental support.

The SKS's front sling attachment point, like the AK's, arent the best for sling shooting in general, and their slings dont generally work out well for practical/hasty sling type shooting, in most all the positions. They are basically just carry slings, and dont work like our 1907 type, or our M1/M14 web slings, which do work well for shooting use.

As far as weight distribution, I believe if you ask any target shooter that knows their stuff, youll find they prefer a barrel heavy rifle for offhand shooting, and for obvious reasons.

Since you claim to be a hillbilly, I would again had thought you knew that, from holding and shooting those old traditional PA type muzzle loading rifles every hillbilly learns to shoot on.

Too many people are limited in their thinking around here.

I dont think its limited thinking thats the issue, far from it really, as I think most of us want to, and are willing to learn. What I think the real issue here is, and more and more as you type, is limited believing.

 

[d2wing]

Shooting clays at 100 yards? With what kind of shells? I shoot competitively sporting clays and trap, and hunt extensively with a shotgun. And I am a certified instructor. I have never seen a load that will reach 100 yards in any shotgun. Some of what is said makes sense but the level of exaggeration and outright fabrication makes the whole story a load of bs.but then we are talking about accurate SKS's.
I like the idea of a match. I have a Saiga and an AR and a 7400. I would love another trip to Texas but I don't know if I can go that far for a match.