slam fires and machine guns

[Gunnerpalace]

agency whose whole goal is to disarm the public

No it's not the director of the ATF is more pro gun the the director of the FBI.

I'll put my trust in the ATF.

Because if he was truly innocent would not the NRA helped him?

 

[MGshaggy]

Oh wait, I get it now. The entire government is putting all its resources behind some top-secret campaign to put an otherwise unknown drill instructor from Wisconsin away because he's such a high profile target. Yeah, I bet they've been tracking him for years, trying to figure how they could scheme up an investigation and fabricate enough evidence to finally get this guy because they know they can't ban all guns through legislation. Its all part of Operation Fienstein - the government has finally realized they can't enact a national gun ban, so BATFE is going to prosecute each and every gun owner, one at a time, fabricate enough evidence in every case to get a conviction, and get us all in prison where we can't own guns. Yeah, Operation Feinstein, thats it.


Occam's razor is just way too far-fetched and unbelievable...

 

[taprackbang]

The government has finally realized they can't enact a national gun ban, so BATFE is going to prosecute each and every gun owner, one at a time, fabricate enough evidence in every case to get a conviction.

You finally get it... I do not think that disarmament is top secret. It is meant to 'bully' gun owners and give an illusion of power.

A gun that was built to slam fire when the selector is in the auto position is a machine gun.

That is so ridiculous. "Hey fellas, let's go spend $1,000 on ammo JUST so we can watch it slam fire ONCE."
Puhhleeeezz!!

 

[Jeff White]

That is so ridiculous. "Hey fellas, let's go spend $1,000 on ammo JUST so we can watch it slam fire ONCE."
Puhhleeeezz!!

taprackbang,
If you had any idea of how an M16 actually worked you wouldn't say that. If you use M16 internals and put the selector in the auto position and fire a round, the hammer will follow the bolt home every time.

Back around 1983 I bought an AR carbine from Quality Parts Company, now known as Bushmaster. It came with M16 internals. The lower receiver was made by Essential Arms and it had a stop cast into it to keep the selector from going into the automatic position. Some months later the BATF issued their letter that stated the no M16 internals were to be used in an AR. Somewhere in my files I still have the letter from Quality Parts asking for return of the lower so they could swap the internals out for AR15 type parts. Quality Parts paid shipping both ways. From what I understood they had to account for every receiver that left their shop with M16 internal parts.

Anyone who uses M16 internals and modifies the lower so that an M16 selector will go into the auto position has made a machine gun. It will fire more then one round with one pull of the trigger that way.

I suggest you do a search and try to find FM 23-9 online somewhere and look at the diagrams of how an M16 works on auto. It's not rocket science to understand how it works. You don't have to be the reincarnation of Gene Stoner. Anyone who could pass the mechanical portion of the ASVAB test can understand it.

Now the BATFE has changed their position and issued a letter saying that it's not the parts that makes it a machine gun, it's if it fires more then one round with one pull of the trigger.

I have no idea if Olofson modified the aftermarket lower receiver so that an M16 selector would go in the auto position. But I do know that he knew that the rifle would double or triple with the selector in that position, even telling the guy he loaned it to that it would.

I'm sorry you are wasting your outrage on a criminal. If Olofson didn't agree with the law on machine guns that was his choice, he made it and he's paying the price. He is not the kind of person that you are going to use to get the 1986 closure of the machine gun registry overturned. He's nothing more then someone who knowingly broke the law and got caught at it. Now he's paying the price.

Do you think he'd have been charged if it doubled because of a malfunction and it had AR15 internals? I rather doubt it, it would have been hard to prove that he willfully broke the law then. In this case, it's pretty cut and dried.

Jeff

 

[crotalus01]

I pretty much agree with you Jeff....However one BATFE examiner (on the stand) said if an double-barreled shotgun fired both barrels with a single pull it was a "MG". That kinda proves to me that BATFE is out to **** gun owners....

 

[Soundtrackzz]

that may be the BATFE position. But in court i doubt they would be able to prove that a double barrelled shotgun is an MG. No reasonable jury would ever convict

 

[halfbreed808]

As I understand this just being in possession of a part that makes your AR15 fire more than two rounds with one trigger pull is illegal. Just having the part makes you guilty. You don't even have to have it installed in your rifle or have it on your person. All they have to do is prove that you tried to obtain a part that would make your rifle fully automatic. Just the act of attempting to acquire a part or parts and your screwed. If they don't hit you with possession they can always fall back on a conspiracy charge.

 

[Jeff White]

However one BATFE examiner (on the stand) said if an double-barreled shotgun fired both barrels with a single pull it was a "MG". That kinda proves to me that BATFE is out to **** gun owners....

I think it proves one examiner is an idiot.

As I understand this just being in possession of a part that makes your AR15 fire more than two rounds with one trigger pull is illegal. Just having the part makes you guilty. You don't even have to have it installed in your rifle or have it on your person. All they have to do is prove that you tried to obtain a part that would make your rifle fully automatic. Just the act of attempting to acquire a part or parts and your screwed. If they don't hit you with possession they can always fall back on a conspiracy charge.

You understand wrong. At one time they ruled that possession of an AR15 and one M16 internal part was a machine gun. However several years ago, the USSC ruled in a case involving a TC Contender and a Contender carbine kit that mere possession of the short barrel of the Contender and the carbine kit was not an unregistered SBR. The court ruled that they had to prove that the parts had actually been put together into a configuration that created an SBR.

That said, there is really no reason to have any M16 fire control parts in your AR15. The only M16 part that would possibly help it function would be the bolt carrier which has more mass then an AR15 carrier. That might help a semi-auto carbine function a little better, although my 6920 as purchased before Colt started shipping them with M16 carriers and it functions fine after 15K rounds.

Jeff

 

[halfbreed808]

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I wasn't talking about SBR's.I was talking about lightning links and other parts that would make your AR15 fully automatic. I was just citing an incident that happened to one of my good friends and what he is going through.

 

[ctdonath]

Yeah, Operation Feinstein, thats it.

There is a spectrum of what on-paper crimes the feds take seriously; some they largely ignore, some they take extremely seriously. Murder is not at the top of the list; postal fraud and unlicensed machineguns are.

A friend worked for a company that handled a lot of MGs. A paperwork error gave the illusion that a MG had gone missing. The BATFE, suspecting a particular employee, went so far as to buy a house next to his and have a "husband & wife" move in to get socially cozy, get invited into his house, and/or convince him to get a personal FFL so the BATFE would be authorized to raid his "business" to find the missing MG. When the typo was discovered & confirmed, the "family" suddenly disappeared.

Another case I'm picking up on involves a "suspect" who lives by a river. An unusually devoted fly fisherman has appeared, taking up position near the house, and is there every day, all day, all conditions, all weather, whether the river has any chance of providing fish or not.

Go ahead and scoff about "Operation Feinstein"; the BATFE does take all unlicensed MG allegations extremely seriously, and will go to extreme lengths to get a conviction.

Yes, it does sound like the BATFE did plenty of shady/crooked actions to convict Mr. Olofson (and others). Unfortunately, it also sounds like Mr. Olofson strained the limits of what is/isn't a MG (third selector position? missing only 1 MG part? bragged about it doubling? loaned a "malfunctioning" AR to others? ***?), and the BATFE responded in kind. Neither side is saintly here, so stop trying to shove all blame on one or the other.

 

[Soundtrackzz]

The BATFE on has like 2000 agents, its a little ridiculous to think that they have that much time and manpower resources to convict just one guy. Given I hate the ATF for the most part, but a conspiricy thats just going a little overboard

 

[taprackbang]

next

I'm sorry you are wasting your outrage on a criminal.

The BATFE serves no purpose but to harass gun owners and convict them of non-crimes. I am surprised that you would defend them so vigorously. I am concerned, as are others, that a rogue organization can bring total incompetence and entrap gun owners. Get the DVD "The Gang" to see the truth about the ATF. I am not the only one here who is 'PO'd' about this. Jeff, read what Col. Jeff Cooper has to say about the ATF. I am in good company.

Whatever happened to the friend who borrowed his AR? I would never have loaned out my rifle!

Do you think he'd have been charged if it doubled because of a malfunction and it had AR15 internals?

I do, Jeff, I sincerely believe he would have been charged. But I do not believe he had what they said he did. ATF has a habit of welding parts on and changing out parts to fashion rifles to get a conviction.

Jeff,
Do you trust the ATF to have tested his rifle, absent any attorney or video, to prove their findings before the court? Could they not have slightly 'exaggerated' the results? If we are wrong, then we are falsely accusing someone.

The BATFE, suspecting a particular employee, went so far as to buy a house next to his and have a "husband & wife" move in to get socially cozy, get invited into his house, and/or convince him to get a personal FFL so the BATFE would be authorized to raid his "business" to find the missing MG.

Unbelievable..

 

[Soundtrackzz]

The JFPO and their DVDs are great material and makes for good informational viewing, but look one person just freaking out about it is going to be just that one single person freaking out about it with no one and no proof to back up his allegations

 

[Jeff White]

I am concerned, as are others, that a rogue organization can bring total incompetence and entrap gun owners.

Olofson was not entrapped by anyone but his own stupidity.

Get the DVD "The Gang" to see the truth about the ATF.

Propaganda is propaganda. It doesn't matter if it comes from our side or theirs. It starts with a scrap of truth and adds in slant, speculation and outright lies in order to influence people to a certain point of view.

I am not the only one here who is 'PO'd' about this. Jeff, read what Col. Jeff Cooper has to say about the ATF. I am in good company.

There have been plenty of real abuses by the BATFE to be PO'd about. Unfortunately the facts in this case don't support the outrage.

Do you trust the ATF to have tested his rifle, absent any attorney or video, to prove their findings before the court? Could they not have slightly 'exaggerated' the results? If we are wrong, then we are falsely accusing someone.

What you do in that case is hire your own experts to repeat the test and introduce your result. Of course that costs money and it doesn't generate donations to an RKBA group by like allegations that a rogue agency is running wild, framing innocent citizens. Lab results and tests by investigative agencies are challenged in court all the time. There was nothing stopping the defense from procuring an identical AR15 and conducting their own tests and hiring their own expert to impeach those done by the BATFE....Nothing except the fact that an AR15 with M16 fire control parts WILL double or triple if the selector is in the auto position.

You've picked the wrong case to be outraged over.

Jeff

 

[ebd10]

This is an interesting thread. A few things that I think bear mentioning; Olofson had a letter from the ATF proclaiming that the AR15 in question was NOT a machinegun. The test methods of the ATF are difficult to pin down because they don't have any published standards for what makes a machinegun other than the questionable "shot to trigger pull ratio", a rule that leaves no room for malfunctions, mishaps, or bad ammunition. Testing and retesting to get a desired result is skewing the evidence. If the ATF had been able to reproduce the slam fires without having to resort to soft primered ammo, I might lend them more credence. However, to search around for some way to cause the desired malfunction says nothing about the firearm, it says a lot about the ammo and even more about the testing body.

What you do in that case is hire your own experts to repeat the test and introduce your result. Of course that costs money and it doesn't generate donations to an RKBA group by like allegations that a rogue agency is running wild, framing innocent citizens. Lab results and tests by investigative agencies are challenged in court all the time. There was nothing stopping the defense from procuring an identical AR15 and conducting their own tests and hiring their own expert to impeach those done by the BATFE....Nothing except the fact that an AR15 with M16 fire control parts WILL double or triple if the selector is in the auto position.

To expect an average citizen to be able to afford the costs incurred by hiring such witnesses while facing off against an agency that has limitless funds, time, and resources is absurd. There are cases of people who did time in prison for no other reason than they couldn't afford to do exactly what you say they needed to do.

 

[Soundtrackzz]

You know instead of just sitting here and arguing about a corrupt agency and a poorly written statute, we could write our represenatives and ask them to amend the statute. Given its not likely that anything will change but at least we can try.

 

[ctdonath]

To expect an average citizen to be able to afford the costs incurred by hiring such witnesses while facing off against an agency that has limitless funds, time, and resources is absurd.

The alternative leaves little choice. Get creative.

couldn't afford to do exactly what you say they needed to do.

And how much is that? no more than $2K in platform & parts, plus $XK for what should be a very short process for an expert witness. Max of $10K, so work with the terms "home equity loan", "cash advance", and "sell the car already".

...but this is assuming that you're actually in the clear. Sounds like the defendant in this case wasn't, knowingly having an AR that any expert witness should testify would "double", and loaning it to others instead of fixing it.

 

[ebd10]

You know instead of just sitting here and arguing about a corrupt agency and a poorly written statute, we could write our represenatives and ask them to amend the statute. Given its not likely that anything will change but at least we can try.

works for me. Here's a good place to start.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-4900

 

[Jim K]

So any and all persons accused of owning unregistered machineguns are innocent victims of a BATFE plot? Sorry, but I don't buy that, having seen too many folks on this and other sites asking how they can make a machinegun and indicating that they know the law and deliberately plan to violate it.

I think there is something very suspicious in the story, on both sides.

Jim

 

[brickeyee]

The test methods of the ATF are difficult to pin down because they don't have any published standards for what makes a machinegun other than the questionable "shot to trigger pull ratio", a rule that leaves no room for malfunctions, mishaps, or bad ammunition.

The "shot to trigger pull ratio" is the very definition of a machine gun, right from the federal code.

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 3]
[Revised as of April 1, 2007]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR479.11]

[Page 88-91]

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 479_MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table

Subpart B_Definitions

Sec. 479.11 Meaning of terms.

Machine gun. Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can
be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without
manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall
also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed
and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed
and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any
combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such
parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
How are you supposed to evaluate an unknown device against a clearly stated code provision?

If they published a set of ‘rules’ for performing the tests, and you got around the test, would the weapon then NOT be machine gun?

Whie they have had some goofy things happen (shoelaces and rubber bands) they have a rather tough problem:
To test unknown devices for compliance with the law.

 

[taprackbang]

Just read what ebd10 and ctdonath wrote.

 

[ctdonath]

So any and all persons accused of owning unregistered machineguns are innocent victims

Well, there is something in the Constitution about "shall not be infringed"...

 

[ebd10]

So any and all persons accused of owning unregistered machineguns are innocent victims of a BATFE plot?

No, but when court cases like this are allowed to stand:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/NewsArchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=298

Ya gotta wonder.

 

[ebd10]

The "shot to trigger pull ratio" is the very definition of a machine gun, right from the federal code.

The problem is, in any test situation in which I've worked or encountered, there has been a published method of testing that outlines the parameters as to what constitutes a failure or aproblem. These publications are usually available to the public, or in the case of private industry, to their customers. The ATF has no such written test procedures and actively resists being required to do so.

 

[ctdonath]

there has been a published method of testing that outlines the parameters as to what constitutes a failure or aproblem.

And in this case, there is: if, under any condition, more than one round is fired for one trigger pull, it's a MG by law. There is no "...unless it's a 1-in-10,000 case, or obviously a malfunction, or exotic ammo is used, or...".
BATFE feels obliged to take this very literally.