Slate: bedwetting about mag capacity

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antsi

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Catch and Shoot
The perils of "contagious shooting."
By William Saletan
Posted Thursday, Nov. 30, 2006, at 2:35 AM ET
Fifty bullets fired at three unarmed men last Saturday. Forty-three fired at an armed man last year. Forty-one fired at Amadou Diallo. All by New York police; all cases fatal.

Why so many bullets? "Contagious shooting," proposed the New York Times in a front-page story on Monday. "An officer fires, so his colleagues do, too."

It's natural to grope for a rational or mechanical explanation in cases like these. But it's not clear which kind of explanation this contagion is. If it's rational, it should be judged like any rational process, and cops should be culpable for it. If it's mechanical, it should be controlled like any mechanical process, starting with the guns supplied to police. We can't keep doing what we've been doing: giving cops high-round semiautomatic weapons because we trust them not to blast away like robots, then excusing them like robots when they blast away.

Supposedly, contagious shooting was coined four decades ago to explain copycat police fire during riots. Once you start describing a behavioral phenomenon as a predictable sequence of events—"post-traumatic stress disorder," for example—people start reading it as an excuse. Seven years ago, during the Diallo case, a lawyer for one of the accused officers pointed out that "contagious shooting" was in the New York Police Department patrol guide. "I suspect that this phenomenon may play an active role in this case for my client," he told reporters.

What makes contagious shooting a handy legal defense is its mechanical portrayal of behavior. You're not choosing to kill; you're catching a disease. In the Diallo era, the NYPD patrol guide explained that the first shot "sets off a chain reaction of shooting by other personnel." Officers "join in as a kind of contagion," said the Times. They "instinctively follow suit," said the Daily News, as one shot "sparks a volley from other officers." On Monday, the Times said contagious shooting "spreads like germs, like laughter." One former NYPD official called it the "fog of the moment." Another said "your reflexes take over." A third told CNN, "It's sort of like a Pavlovian response. It's automatic. It's not intentional."

This mess of metaphors is telling. Nothing can behave like germs, sparks, laughter, fog, instinct, and conditioning all at once. That's the first clue that "contagious" is being used not to clarify matters, but to confuse them. Another clue is that the same people who invoke it often point out that the number of shootings by police is low and has been falling. An urge that's so commonly resisted can't be irresistible.

Here's a third clue: Prior to Monday, "contagious shooting" had appeared in 25 articles in Nexis. Half of them were about cops or soldiers; the other half were about basketball. Three years ago, for example, contagious shooting "rubbed off" among Duke players; last year, it "spread" among the Philadelphia 76ers. Anyone who follows sports knows that writers reach for such silly metaphors when they have no idea why something happened.

Maybe cops can get off with this defense. But it carries a price. If lethal police reactions really are contagious, then the sensible response is to control them like a disease. As Al Sharpton—who says 10,000 things a year and is right at least twice—pointed out Monday, contagious shooting as an explanation for this week's tragedy is "even more frightening" than malice, since it implies that such incidents will recur. The most famous invocation of contagion in law enforcement, delivered eight decades ago by Justice Louis Brandeis, became a centerpiece of the 1966 Miranda case. "Crime is contagious," Brandeis wrote. "If the Government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy."

How can you control a contagion of police overreaction? By controlling the crucial mechanism: guns. The key number in the Diallo case wasn't 41; it was 16. Two of the four officers accounted for 32 of the 41 bullets, because each of them emptied his weapon. NYPD rules "require that the officers carry nine millimeter semi-automatic pistols with 16 shots in the magazine and the first trigger pull being a conventional trigger pull and all subsequent trigger pulls being a hair trigger pull," one defense lawyer told the jury. That's why the officers fired so many shots so fast: Their guns, loaded with 64 rounds, "were all capable of being emptied in less than four seconds."

Same thing this week. Thirty-one of the 50 bullets reportedly came from one officer's 16-round semiautomatic. One reload, two clips, total mayhem.

This is why Mayor David Dinkins and his police commissioners, including Ray Kelly, originally opposed giving cops semiautomatic weapons. In 1993, when they gave in, they put a 10-round limit on the clips. A year later, Mayor Rudy Giuliani and his commissioner lifted the cap. They argued that cops shouldn't be outgunned and would handle the weapons responsibly. It's the same argument the National Rifle Association makes for the freedom to use firearms: Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

Contagious shooting blows that argument away. If cops fire reflexively, there's no moral difference between people and guns. They're both machines, and based on recent shootings, we should limit clips or firing speed to control their damage. No responsibility, no freedom.

Alternatively, we could reassert that police are free agents, to be trusted with weapons and held responsible—not excused with mechanical metaphors—when they abuse them. You can't have it both ways.
 
Alternatively, we could reassert that police are free agents, to be trusted with weapons and held responsible—not excused with mechanical metaphors—when they abuse them. You can't have it both ways.

The last line is excellent, not bedwetting. Isn't personal responsibility what we as gun owner's want?
 
--------quote--------
The last line is excellent, not bedwetting. Isn't personal responsibility what we as gun owner's want?
----------------------

Okay, re-title this thread "12 paragraphs of bedwetting and 1 that is semi-continent." :neener:
 
Well, the obvious answer is that only non-LE and non-military should have high-capacity magazines. The government just can't be trusted with them!

;)
 
I'm gonna be a stick in the mud.

Imagine you're on the fence. You've heard from the press that "high capacity magazines" are a problem. You don't know if they're right or not. You're concerned, and go searching the web for information and opinions to see what's what.

Now you come here, and you find out that anyone who is concerned about magazine capacity is a "bedwetter."

Are you going to read more?

Or are you going to go away disgusted?
 
He spends almost the whole article saying that a person can't pawn off their actions on some phantom contagion, then says that the only way to correct the behavior is to change the tool. Why don't you change the behavior by changing the behavior?

If the article is accurate, then the place to start with that is the training, not the individual cops. It sounds from what he said like they were acting according to their training.

Also, why this emphasis on the number of rounds? Were bystanders injured? If someone is getting shot, it's because they pose a lethal threat and the shooter is prepared to kill them. What difference does it make how many rounds they use?

I expect better writing and arguing from Slate.

And it's magazines :D
 
how does limiting magazine size so anything to stop "contageous" shootings? The example given of an officer firing 31rds debunks the whole article. He reloaded. If even one shot is fired, it can kill. What limits a police officer from carrying extra magazines? And if that happens, how does it solve the problem? One person shot and killed by one round is the same number of deaths to one person shot 50 times.
 
Proposing gun control for police. :uhoh: Wonder what he wants for us non-MIL/LEOs...

Note that the obvious solution is missing: more and better training. But no, that cost money and doesn't give a convenient scapegoat for the these sorts of things.

Of course, this sort of writing isn't unexpected from Slate. They featured a long piece on why it was fair to compare Republicans to Nazis a few days ago.
 
antsi said:
Okay, re-title this thread "12 paragraphs of bedwetting and 1 that is semi-continent."

Don't get me wrong, I had my guard up while reading it too. But the author sneaks in some great points. It is wrapped in gun-control language, but it is actually an article slamming pseudo-psychological claptrap and the ducking of responsibility: Good stuff. You guys are getting all worked up over the mag cap stuff, but the last two paragraphs are gold.

Third_Rail said:
Well, the obvious answer is that only non-LE and non-military should have high-capacity magazines. The government just can't be trusted with them!

Now yer talkin'!
 
It's sort of like a Pavlovian response. It's automatic. It's not intentional.

I must have missed the part where this person has a PHD in psychology.

police commissioners, including Ray Kelly, originally opposed giving cops semiautomatic weapons.

:confused: because single-action revolvers keep everyone safer, right?

honest to god, this is the stupidest thing I've read all week. I'm trying hard to make sense of it, but there's nothing there... nothing.
 
-------quote-------
Or are you going to go away disgusted?
-------------------

You're right. This is the High Road, after all.

Nocturnal enuresis is a serious medical condition that causes real suffering for those affected and their families.

It's unfair and insulting to actual betwetters to compare them to Slate magazine writers. Please accept this as my apology. ;)
 
I have said it a few times....

Cops shouldn't be allowed to have anything we civilians cannot have. If they wanna take mine then take theirs too. (FA included)
 
Why blame magazine capacities when the issue is training?

Yes, TRAINING.

Having a car that goes 150 mph does not mean you get a free pass to "contangously speed" to 150. Nor does it mean all cars should only be able to drive 65 mph and no faster.

there judgement and training involved. Blame the failures there and not in the magazine.

high capacity magazines have been in use since the BHP, why is contagous shooting such a recent event? I mean, since the late 1980's high capacity 9mm's have been prevalent in many US law enforcement agencies.

how often to the officers get training on their weapons? How much range time? scenario training?

If you don't invest in te people you end up with men in uniform shooting like they think action movies and tv are real life.

and limiting magazine capacity has not one damned thing to do with it.
 
How come

contagious shooting doesn't affect me at the range when someone else starts firing?
Or skeet and trap shooters?
Or pairs of hunters?
Sounds bogus to me.
But if it is a real phenomenon shouldn't the PD instructors be liable for failing to provide adequate training?
 
I'm not sure I made my point.

Who is this site for?

Who is the site attempting to influence with reason and facts?

We're the choir, so we don't need influencing.

Could it be that the whole point of this site is to provide reason and facts to counteract the public's impression that guns are scary-bad and gun owners are fanatical, scary, camo wearing, sign-shooting yahoos?

Could it be that calling those we disagree with "bedwetters" does nothing but reinforce that impression?
 
Wow, I didn't know that NYPD was a bunch of Barny Fifes. I guess we need to give them each one bullet and tell them to keep it in their pockets.:rolleyes: Didn't the ACLU try to keep the police armed with wheel guns about 20 years ago? Looks like they're at that one again....
 
I read the article, and didn't see it as bedwetting. I think it was an effort to debunk the myth of "contagious shooting". Magazine capacity limitations are a tongue in cheek remedy for a problem that doesn't really exist.

Police commissioners opposed to semi-autos is not surprising to me. The commissioners are probably old school cops who take the attitude that limiting police to six rounds in a revolver would make folks think twice about emptying their firearm without carefully aiming. It is an attitude that is not without some validity.

I didn't find the article particularly anti-gun, either. But, then, it wouldn't be the first time I have missed being insulted.:rolleyes:
 
Something else about it:

http://instapundit.com/archives2/2006/11/post_685.php

Mag capacity is an interesting thing.

I was shooting doves on private land (authorized of course) recently. A few of us just took positions behind a shed, some trees, etc. I didn't have too many shells; the opportunity just arose unexpectedly when I had a shotgun. The other people had 20's, I had a 12 Gauge, so we couldn't share ammo.

Anyway, as long as I had 3 in the gun, I didn't shoot so well. I shot a couple, but it took 2 shots per bird. When I was down to one last shell, I shot a lot better, and squarely nailed the last bird. I had one shot, and I used it as well as I knew how. Focus.

And that's just 3 rounds, not 13, or 30. Having more than one round changes your mentality when under stress. Yes, upland hunting replicates stress, though not fear. You just tend to lose your focus when the birds pop out and fly by real fast.

I'm not suggesting that cops should shoot Thompson Contenders. However, I can say from experience that having multiple rounds in an autoloader does change the way you use the gun dramatically. Training can counteract this, of course, but it has to be the right kind.
 
Monster Mags

Yeah.

Wasn't there a cop in the recent wedding day shooting that emptied his 31-round magazine?

Oh, wait, he had multiple mags. He reloaded.

Well, if we're gonna limit mag size, we'd better limit number o' mags, too.

Better yet, can we just go back to revolvers? And limit the number of speed loaders?

Whatever you do, avoid actually training with extensive practice for police. After all, too much practice wastes the taxpayer's money on all that ammo. Departmental budgets, you know.
 
One thing I do wonder, though.

Could cops, perhaps, train extensively with .22LR pistols just like the rest of us?

Seems like shooting experience transfers to a different caliber pretty well, whereas a lack of experience isn't good with any bullet.

This would allow a lower training budget, since the guns don't wear out quickly, the ammo is cheap, and the range/backstop requirements are less stringent.
 
Goin' the wrong direction. Make it more time consuming to change mags. I'm thinkin' padlock or thumb combination. Maybe a keylock and selector switch. I got it! Password access along with biometric ID. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Did the article's author think to talk with police instructors and find out just exactly what LEO's are trained to do in extremis.
 
Also, why this emphasis on the number of rounds? Were bystanders injured? If someone is getting shot, it's because they pose a lethal threat and the shooter is prepared to kill them. What difference does it make how many rounds they use?

It can make a big difference if the shots are being fired indiscriminately, and are not hitting the intended target. In this case the two passangers in the car didn't represent a threat, lethal or otherwise, and it was reported that some of the bullets hit surrounding buildings and windows. In an urban environment “spray and pray” tactics will – sooner or later – result in some innocent person being wounded or killed. Yes, this is more of a training issue then a gun one. But if the city is unwilling to pay for quality training, the residents would be better off if the department went back to revolvers.
 
Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

Contagious shooting blows that argument away. If cops fire reflexively, there's no moral difference between people and guns. They're both machines, and based on recent shootings, we should limit clips or firing speed to control their damage. No responsibility, no freedom.
Except that the people (police) used a tool (guns) to kill people; the author argues that police are tools, akin to guns, thus making being a LEO some form of involuntary servitutde, which is unconstitutional.
So, shouldn't we train the machines that can do something other than hit a primer to not just blast away?

Give them all Rugers, with 10 round mags, since no "good citizen" (and cops ARE citizens) should need more than 10 rounds.

I had heard that LEOs in some areas were trained to "shoot until empty"?
 
I had heard that LEOs in some areas were trained to "shoot until empty"?

I would be stunned if that was true. Most commonly you are taught to shoot until the threat stops.

It this wasn't so political, and it was a normal shooting, or if the shooting had been performed by a regular person instead of a cop, then the main question would be:

Were you in danger of receiving serious bodily harm? Yes/No.

Dependant upon the above question, did the shooter act in a reasonable manner?

All this talk about limiting mag capacity stinks like an HCI press release. 600,000 other cops with high cap magazines didn't blaze away indiscriminately at anyone today. Several million CCW holders with high cap mags didn't blaze away at anyone today either.

And the contagious shooting thing does happen. I don't care what you call it, and there is a whole lot of difference between shooting ducks and shooting people.

If you are cop #3 or #4, and you see cop #1 and #2 suddenly react and start shooting the heck out of someone/something you are probably going to react because your reasonable instinct would be that #1 and #2 wouldn't be shooting unless they had a good reason, and you better help.

Realistically the only way to overcome this is with training, not tools. If you are the someone/something in the above paragraph, it doesn't matter if you were shot 4 times or 31 times. You're still dead.
 
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