Slave Nation - 101

[Vernal45]

But what actual freedoms have we lost?

I cant believe you asked that question. If you believe we have not lost any freedoms, well......................I just ..............<shaking head> dont know how to respond to that and keep within the rules of this forum.

 

[LawDog]

Not hardly - we get to choose between greater or lesser evils to run that State.

Or maybe I missed a couple issues on the last ballot:

They were there. Easy to miss, though. They were hidden under:

"Libertarian Candidate"

First off, what is the difference between a "private" airplane and one owned by Pan Am?

Two words: Federal. Subsidies. You will notice that neither of those words are in a larger font, not are they blue, this doesn't mean that they aren't important.

Pan Am, Delta, et al. accept a large amount of money from the Federal Government to keep running. You take the Devil's coin, you play by the Devil's rules. Once the larger airlines started pocketing the gov't money, they stopped being private.

And that is the difference. That, and the fact that I can climb into my buddy Ed's Beechcraft carrying a bloody arsenal, and no one gets their snot locker out of joint.

As for sales of firearms, I was obviously referring to sales from a dealer.

I obviously wasn't. The fact remains, if you don't want to fill out the forms, then buy your firearms from private citizens.

I can see I will be wasting my time here trying to convice people that they aren't free. They believe if they own a gun they are free.

*snort*

Not our fault if your debating skills can't hack it.

LawDog

 

[rick_reno]

I've lived as a civilian in foreign countries - trust me - we have freedoms here that others can only dream about. I won't ague there is room for improvement.

 

[2nd Amendment]

I just dont get this "America is in a Decline" view. Compare the US of today to the US of 100 years ago and we are light years ahead of where we were. Sure the government is larger, but we also get a lot more service...

...I think the good old days of freedom are largely illusory. We were much more of a slave state back when we were, uh, a slave state.

This is the sort of quote that leaves me baffled. So because a hundred years ago we didn't have as many tax based government "services" and because individuals chose to be bigots we are more free today? I don't want the services, I don't want the taxes, I don't need government to tell me not to be a bigot. I don't need government to zone or inspect my property, nor do I need DNR to enter my property on a whim. If I wasn't taxed to death I'd have twice the spending money I currently have and not need any services supplied "for free"(government fable). I certainly don't want to worry about government some day finding pot growing in my back woods, or the remains of some fool's meth lab there, and taking everything I own "because they can".

"The good old days of freedom" involved little or no interaction with law or government for most people. We've sacrificed an awful lot for the few services and attitude changes you mentioned.

 

[JShirley]

I did a bit of criminal impersonation with his orifice

WOW. Just...wow. Please don't tell us more.

J

 

[2nd Amendment]

*LMAO*

I saw that but thought I'd avoid any comment.

 

[Old Dog]

But what actual freedoms have we lost?

I'm waiting for an answer to this as well.

cant believe you asked that question. If you believe we have not lost any freedoms, well......................I just ..............<shaking head> dont know how to respond to that and keep within the rules of this forum.

I can believe he asked the question. In fact -- I asked myself that question, and haven't come up with anything yet. Please enlighten to as to what I'm overlooking.

Really, guys -- our government is a work in progress. The pendulum will always, for the life of this planet, be swinging to and fro. The founding fathers recognized this, hence the wonderful framework they provided us in the form of the U.S. Constitution. Now, many of you would prefer to believe that the pendulum is presently swinging the wrong way and will continue in that direction ... that's okay.

 

[R.H. Lee]

But what actual freedoms have we lost?

'Lost' implies the erosion of freedoms is/was somehow beyond our control. Like we just woke up one morning and discovered our liberties aren't what they used to be. Au contraire. We forfeited the aforementioned 'freedoms' by way of apathy and inaction. We've only ourselves to blame.

 

[billythekid]

Freedom Lost...

OK...here is a
small list of freedoms lost...for those so challeged among us to not notice...
The freedom to purchase a full automatic firearm without a fee or anyone
deciding you can or cannot do so.
To own a full automatic should not be a crime in and of itself because no one is damaged by just owning one.
The freedom to carry a concealed firearm without having to pay a fee to someone else to do so.
The freedom to own a home without having to pay someone else rent every year. In Russia they call it rent. We call it "property tax."
The freedom to travel without a permit. That is soon to become an internal passport just like the Soviet Union used to have only worse because of modern technology.
The freedom to own your own home and not have to pay someone for permission to add a room onto it.
Here is one...the freedom NOT to have to register for the selective service, which in and of itself SHOWS who thinks they own you when you reach the age of 18 and not doing so is a FIVE YEAR FEDERAL FELONY and a 250,000 fine.
The freedom to be able to be born without registering you children with the state. (Birth certificates) Without which your children cannot get a drivers license as they are considered "non" persons.
The freedom to be able to enter or leave this country whenever you feel like without a passport. And I am not talking about Mexico or Canada. I may want to go to IRELAND and I cannot do so without some government agent's permssion. I think his name is Agent Smith.
The freedom to keep what you earn without having to be forced to turn over close to 50% per year to some B rat that offers NOTHING but FORCED services.
The freedom to smoke or ingest whatever the heck you feel like without facing prison time with an inmate that will rape you.
The freedom to have a particular trade without paying a fee to someone to decide whether you qualify or not.
The freedom to be able to buy sell or trade without a Social Security System number.
The freedom to be able to decide whether or not YOU want automobile insurance without state interference.
The freedom to walk out on my front porch and have a beer without being arrested for having a opened container of alchohol in my possesion.
The freedom to be able to own a short barrelled rifle or sawed off shotgun as long as I don't damage someone else with it.
The freedom to decide on my own what color my house is going to be painted.
The freedom to own my "property" without Wal-mart or Cosco being able to come in and have the local government seize it without my consent using "eminent domain".
The freedom to decide whether or not I want to wear a helmet or drive without seat belts.
The freedom to be able to use ANYONE I CHOOSE for my defense in a trial that I may end up in for violating some stupid "law".
Freedom to be able to own a car that has rust holes in it. (Rhode Island)
Freedom to be able to build a swimming pool or put in a septic tank without some local B rat's permission.
Freedom is being able to do ANYTHING I WANT as long as it doesn't damage SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE, LIBERTY or PROPERTY.

I could right a book on this, but here is a small list for those that are having a hard time believing that they are SLAVES and that whenever you have to ask ANYONE permission to do something that you are SLAVES to that person.
If I work 50% of my life to pay for "government" and it is against my choosing I am at least a SLAVE for 50% of my life, for I could have been KIDNAPPED and made to work for 50% of my life by the same reasoning.

Anyone that cannot see the truth of the message needs to have a reality check.

YOU ARE LIVING IN THE MATRIX and have taken the BLUE PILL.
I prefer the RED PILL.

http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/wasdin/wasdin7.html

 

[centac]

"Anyone that cannot see the truth of the message needs to have a reality check.

YOU ARE LIVING IN THE MATRIX and have taken the BLUE PILL.
I prefer the RED PILL."

You cannot argue with a "reality check" next to a reference to a science fiction movie


You are free to do any of the things you cited, but to whip out another cliche, freedom isnt free and you'll need to pay a price. Now ante up.

 

[TallPine]

They were there. Easy to miss, though. They were hidden under:

"Libertarian Candidate"

HA! That's exactly what I did! (for President and Governor)

A lot of good it did me. Most folks on THR will rant at how "I wasted my vote"

Can't win

 

[Old Dog]

Now it all makes sense ... I finally noticed your link to Mike Wasdin's site. Well, I guess THR can always use a few more anarchists around ...

whenever you have to ask ANYONE permission to do something that you are SLAVES to that person.

Wow. Dude, I'm hoping that you really don't believe that. Otherwise, you've got a tough life ahead.

Hey, I get to shoot machine guns occasionally at work ... while I confess I find it quite fun, the fact that I can't legally own one (not that I don't believe I should be able to) doesn't make me a slave.

Anyone that cannot see the truth of the message needs to have a reality check.

Dude ... whoa ... dude ...

 

[LawDog]

Once the People get fed up, they'll start hitting the third party button a lot more. Enough of them get mad enough, and the Libs and others start hauling down a consistent 12%+ share of the popular vote -- things will change.

That's the way the system works.

LawDog

 

[LawDog]

YOU ARE LIVING IN THE MATRIX and have taken the BLUE PILL.
I prefer the RED PILL.

Oo! Oo! I'll play! That quote is from The Matrix, a truly abysmal sci-fi movie, with some pretty good special effects.

My turn:

And this is what we mean by the original contract of society; which, though perhaps in no instance it has ever been formally expressed at the first institution of a state, yet in nature and reason must always be understood and implied, in the very act of associating together: namely, that the whole should protect all its parts, and that every part should pay obedience to the will of the whole; or, in other words, that the community should guard the rights of each individual member, and that (in return for this protection) each individual should submit to the laws of the community; without which submission of all it was impossible that protection could be certainly extended to any.

Just the name of the author will do, although you get brownie points for naming the work.

Google-ising doesn't count.

LawDog

 

[2nd Amendment]

Nice, ask for a list then ignore it to attack a sigline. I'd expect better from most of you.

 

[billythekid]

Winning brownie points from the brownie.

Carl Marx? Part of the Communist Manifesto? Adolf Hitler? Part of Mein Kampf?
Why should I GIVE A CRAP WHO WROTE IT?

Apparently if it wasn't one of those guys it was someone who studied them well, or else they studied him well. Probably that idiot Tucker who did a commentary on Blackstone that is pure vomit.

I don't HAVE a contract with "society". I was born here by chance and as long as I DON'T DAMAGE SOME ONE ELSE'S LIFE, LIBERTY OR PROPERTY I AM NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG NO MATTER "WHO" SAYS I AM. I am NOT a citizen of the "United States" which is nothing but a man made fiction. I am a citizen of the Kingdom Of God and whether or not that suffices as a "religious" statement or not is the FACT of the matter. You clowns can claim to be citizens of some sort of fiction and that is fine with me. But it doesn't mean that if 260,000 million of you think you are right that it makes me wrong.

ANY LAW TO THE CONTRARY IS NO LAW AT ALL BUT SIMPLY A TOOL OF ENSLAVEMENT. The majority of the readers of this post, LOVE the slavery they live in and as the article says would kill someone who tried to free them.

And besides that...why should I support a constitution that wasn't even SIGNED by the guys who wrote it? What binds ME 200+ years later to that contract? Gag me with a place setting.

NO TREASON NO. VI. THE CONSTITUTION OF NO AUTHORITY
http://lawcasella.com/spooner/NoTreason.htm

You people would sit on a jury and convict your fellow man of some idiot pretend crime and place him in a cage just because the black robbed priest told you too.

So sad, but so true.

 

[LawDog]

He gives us a list of things -- some of which a five-minute use of the search function would have shown that most of us agree with and the rest of which don't apply -- and wraps it up with a quote from The Matrix.

This is The High Road. 99% of us complain incessantly about each and every one of the firearms-related complaints he so-nicely brought to our lacking attention. So we'll remove the firearms related comments.

The freedom to own a home without having to pay someone else rent every year. In Russia they call it rent. We call it "property tax."
Not real fond of it myself. However, if it bothers you that much, move to Nevada.

The freedom to travel without a permit. That is soon to become an internal passport just like the Soviet Union used to have only worse because of modern technology.
We do travel without permits. All the time. I pay cash at Greyhound, nobody asks for a permit. I pay cash for a train, no permit required. Friend happens to be flying his Beechcraft to Colorado Springs, I hitch a ride. No permit. Hell, I just drive from here to any part of the Lower 48 and nobody asks me for a permit. I sail a boat from Galveston to anypoint on the Gulf Coast, nobody asks me for a permit. What you specify might happen in the future, but it doesn't happen now, as you intimate.

The freedom to own your own home and not have to pay someone for permission to add a room onto it.
Added an extension two years ago. The only person who got asked was Grandma.

Here is one...the freedom NOT to have to register for the selective service, which in and of itself SHOWS who thinks they own you when you reach the age of 18 and not doing so is a FIVE YEAR FEDERAL FELONY and a 250,000 fine.
Elect people who will change the law.

The freedom to be able to be born without registering you children with the state. (Birth certificates) Without which your children cannot get a drivers license as they are considered "non" persons.
We have thousands of children born overseas every year who don't get birth certificates, yet they manage.

The freedom to be able to enter or leave this country whenever you feel like without a passport. And I am not talking about Mexico or Canada. I may want to go to IRELAND and I cannot do so without some government agent's permssion. I think his name is Agent Smith.
Get ye to Mexico. Go to a port town and hop a small freighter doing scut-work for travel expenses. Get off at whatever port you want. Hell, buy yourself a sailboat and do the trip yourself.

The freedom to keep what you earn without having to be forced to turn over close to 50% per year to some B rat that offers NOTHING but FORCED services.
Many, many threads involving just this subject. Search function is your friend.

The freedom to smoke or ingest whatever the heck you feel like without facing prison time with an inmate that will rape you.
Enter War on Some Drugs in your search parameters.

The freedom to have a particular trade without paying a fee to someone to decide whether you qualify or not.
Oh, please. There are literally thousands of jobs out there that don't require a qualification.

The freedom to be able to buy sell or trade without a Social Security System number.
I've never purchased anything that required me to give my Social Security Number. I've never sold anything where I've required someone to give me their SSN. Same goes with trading.

The freedom to be able to decide whether or not YOU want automobile insurance without state interference.
Vote libertarian.

The freedom to walk out on my front porch and have a beer without being arrested for having a opened container of alchohol in my possesion.
I'm in Texas. I can drink a beer on my front porch, in my backyard or anywhere else on my property that I please. Hell, I brew my own beer and drink it wherever I want to on my property.

The freedom to decide on my own what color my house is going to be painted.
Don't join a Homeowners Association and paint your house whatever colour flips your skirt up.

The freedom to own my "property" without Wal-mart or Cosco being able to come in and have the local government seize it without my consent using "eminent domain".
I agree with this one to the extent that eminent domain needs a great deal more checks and balances.

The freedom to decide whether or not I want to wear a helmet or drive without seat belts.
Texas. We changed the helmet law. We'll change the seatbelt law, too, if we can get enough people to back us.

The freedom to be able to use ANYONE I CHOOSE for my defense in a trial that I may end up in for violating some stupid "law".
You already have that right. It ain't the brightest thing in the world to do, but you got that right.

Freedom to be able to own a car that has rust holes in it. (Rhode Island)
The only bits on my pickup that ain't rust is the bailing wire and duct tape holding it together.

Freedom to be able to build a swimming pool or put in a septic tank without some local B rat's permission.
Move to the country. I don't ask anybody, 'cept the family, what they want done on family property.

Freedom is being able to do ANYTHING I WANT as long as it doesn't damage SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE, LIBERTY or PROPERTY.
Again, preaching+choir.

LawDog

 

[LawDog]

Carl Marx? Part of the Communist Manifesto? Adolf Hitler? Part of Mein Kampf?
Why should I GIVE A CRAP WHO WROTE IT?

Because it was written by the man who codified the Common Law? Blackstone's Commentaries, Introduction of Section 2: Nature of Laws in General.

Probably that idiot Tucker who did a commentary on Blackstone that is pure vomit.

No, but thank you for playing.

The rest of your screed, I think, pretty much sums you up.

LawDog

 

[billythekid]

Lawdoggy...

Yes, Law Doggy, my screed sums me up. A man who want to be left alone by idiots who supply the manpower to put more idiots in "office" to make "laws" that make innocent activities "crimes."
Gee, I must be some sort of terrible person.
Case in point...as a matter of fact I will post a story for you...

This was all over a 1/4" too short of a shot gun, according to our wonderful "Representatives"...

The following is by Claire Wolfe...

Lord Horiuchi of Ruby Ridge

Lon Horiuchi's tax-paid attorneys, having maneuvered state manslaughter charges against their client into federal court, now claim the supremacy clause of the Constitution makes all federal employees exempt from all state law, as long as the employees are acting "in the line of duty." The supremacy clause states:

"This Constitution and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

To anyone but a lawyer this merely means that when a state law conflicts with (constitutional) federal law, the federal law will prevail. Idaho's manslaughter laws don't conflict with any federal statutes.

Charles Curley, gun-rights activist and legal buff, points out that the lawyers' bold move is actually covered in another section of the Constitution -- and not covered in their favor. This section reads:

"No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States."

A title of nobility isn't just an honorific such as "Sir" or "Lord." The essence of nobility is creation a separate class with innate privileges -- private laws -- of its own. "Laws" that say federal employees have to obey no one and nothing outside their own class clearly enshrine and protect an American nobility.

Federal employees have already assumed privileged status by default. If Horiuchi's government attorneys succeed in making their private law official, then we might as well bow down and call Horiuchi what they will have made him: our Lord and Master.

In the line of duty

In the line of duty is another interesting claim. Horiuchi is immune from state prosecution, his lawyers say, because he was acting in the line of duty. This argument got his case transferred to federal court in the first place.

Now, let's see. At Ruby Ridge, in 1992, Horiuchi was ordered to shoot any armed male on sight, whether or not that person was endangering anyone. It's an illegal order, as any schoolchild should know. And it's a highly unorthodox order, as any professional sniper would certainly know.

Since the claim, "I vass only following orders!" was demolished at Nuremberg, Horiuchi had both a moral and legal duty to refuse any such order. But let's give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

What did he do next? While nearly a dozen other snipers held their fire, Horiuchi elected to make two shots. He fired the second one into a house full of children -- an absolutely verboten procedure. He fired it through a window in a door. His own debriefing sketch shows he knew there were at least two people on the other side of that window.

In other words, he disregarded "duty," "orders" or anything else, and simply decided that anyone in that house was a fair target for his sharpshooting. So, was he operating "in the line of duty" when he decided to kill Vicki Weaver?

You be the judge. But it might help to look at some similar, hypothetical situations.

Let's say you were being audited and, in the course of examining your receipts, the IRS auditor found evidence you were having an affair. He blackmails you.

Line of duty?

Well, he found the evidence in the course of an audit, didn't he? And as long as his blackmail was done on IRS time and in the IRS office, by the standard applied by Horiuchi's lawyers, he would be operating "in the line of duty."

Let's say BATF agents came to your house in the course of an investigation. One of the agents decided to lift your really cool AR-15 for her personal collection. But she's still operating in the line of duty, isn't she? I mean, she was sent to your house to take your guns and that's what she did. So what if, like Horiuchi, she decided to give a slight personal interpretation to her orders?

Line of duty? Sure, why not!

And now you're in federal prison and a guard decides to, say, sodomize you with a toilet plunger. Hey, as long as that old guard is on duty, in uniform, and committing his sodomy in the name of keeping order, I guess that would be line of duty.

At least by government lawyer standards.

Here's an idea: plead guilty

This has gone on too long, and the potential damage to freedom from these lawyer tactics is too great. One person has the ability to end this travesty right now: Lon Horiuchi himself.

A syndicated columnist wrote, several years ago, that his friend Lon Horiuchi was being misjudged. He said Horiuchi was not the ice-blooded monster he was reputed to be, but was, in fact, more like Randy Weaver than like Janet Reno -- a religious and political conservative who homeschooled his children as a matter of principle.

I don't know Horiuchi, but I don't see any reason to disbelieve the columnist, who does know him.

So, okay, Lon, if you're such a principled and religious fellow, why don't you just do the right thing?

Five and a half years ago, you pointed a high-powered, scoped rifle through a window and calmly (by your own description) pulled the trigger. The .308 bullet plunged through Vicki Weaver's right cheek, pulverized her teeth, severed her tongue, and exited through the left side of her neck, ripping out her carotid artery, leaving a three-inch exit wound, and just missing the tiny skull of 10-month old Elisheba Weaver. Bullet and skull fragments bore into Kevin Harris, causing lifelong pain and disability.

And for this bloody deed, a county prosecutor finally, after five years of indecision, got up just barely enough courage to slap your wrist with an involuntary manslaughter charge. That's the charge brought when one drunken buddy stupidly, but unintentionally, runs over another with his pickup truck in the parking lot of a bar. It's not the charge brought when one decides to go sniping through the windows of houses. You should kiss the ground that kindly prosecutor walks upon.

And instead you're maneuvering to duck the charge, even if the cost is what's left of the U.S. Constitution.

Why? If you're such a good guy...if you believe in the same god Vicki Weaver did...if you believe it's wrong to shoot nursing mothers...why don't you just plead guilty, pay for your crime, atone for your sin, and vow to do better in the future? Why, if you are such an alleged "principled conservative" would you allow your lawyers to use the most Constitution-twisting tactics -- to hell with the law, to hell with the country, to hell with freedom, as long as your little ass gets saved from even a day in jail or a month of probation?

Why not plead guilty and get it over with? Is it because you believe it was okay to do what you did? Because you're scared to go to prison, like any other murderer?

Or is it that your true god is the federal government, and you believe yourself anointed to smite anyone who refuses to bow to it? Is it because you operate under a "higher law" -- a private law, Lord Horiuchi?

OR how about the church that was incinerated for supposed firearms violations? Oh, you forgot about WACO? I suppose Donald Scott escapes your memory when it comes to government agents murdering someone over supposed pot?

Take off the emerald glasses mr. "law" doggy moderator. You live in a place called Oz that is DUNG BROWN.

 

[LawDog]

Just to clear up any place I may be fuzzy: Are you comparing me to Lon Horiuchi?

Let us be nothing less than crystal clear on this one.

LawDog

 

[billythekid]

Duh...

No Law Dog, I am not comparing you with Lon Horiuchi. Why would you think something like that? Do you feel guilty over something you have done that you know about but I don't? Do you carry a "drop gun"? Ever arrest someone for dope and keep half for yourself? That is what the cops did when I was a cop many years ago...
I am sure they have changed by now...oh sure.

 

[centac]

And like a scratched record, it just keeps repeating, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Ruby Ridge..........Is that all ya got?

I'm still looking for fundamental freedoms that we used to have and dont have anymore, not petty regulations but the biggies - speech, asssembly, voting, religion, the ones the US was founded on......anybody? Bueller? Bueller? (This most be pop movie reference night) The freedoms that places like the old USSR didnt have. Where is our Tiennamen (sp) Square? Quick poll - how many of us have troops quartered in our homes?

Thats what I thought.

 

[LawDog]

I'll take your response as: "No, sir, I wasn't stupid enough to compare a complete stranger on the Internet to Lon Horiuchi. And I was attempting to lighten the atmosphere when I enquired if you were a dirty cop."

Apology accepted.

This one is done. I notice that you have started a new thread, any further discussion shall take place on that thread.

LawDog