Cool Hand Luke 22:36
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I have done neither, nor are you a moderator of this forum empowered to sanction such.
Slave Nation - 101
- Thread starter billythekid
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I have done neither, nor are you a moderator of this forum empowered to sanction such.
thereisnospoon
Member
Part Duex!
Lawdog,
I do not wish this to be personal, however, I have not yet mastered the art of bringing someone's quote into my post.
That being said, your referrence to "Private Property" is another Hologram of Liberty perpetuated (wow, what a big word) by the Fedgoons. If someone wanted to, they could take all that away with in an instant, based on any number of allegations, and you would have to spend mucho bucs and time to retreive your "stolen" "private property". If you don't believe it, ask the guy who manufactures Grizzly .50 cal rifles...
Anyway, the point is this: The only freedoms we currently have are those the "STATE" allows us to have and the list IS growing smaller by the day.
That's what I believe the original article was getting at...we swipe away at the branches and miss the ROOT problem, oversiazed out-of-touch Government.
Lawdog,
I do not wish this to be personal, however, I have not yet mastered the art of bringing someone's quote into my post.
That being said, your referrence to "Private Property" is another Hologram of Liberty perpetuated (wow, what a big word) by the Fedgoons. If someone wanted to, they could take all that away with in an instant, based on any number of allegations, and you would have to spend mucho bucs and time to retreive your "stolen" "private property". If you don't believe it, ask the guy who manufactures Grizzly .50 cal rifles...
Anyway, the point is this: The only freedoms we currently have are those the "STATE" allows us to have and the list IS growing smaller by the day.
That's what I believe the original article was getting at...we swipe away at the branches and miss the ROOT problem, oversiazed out-of-touch Government.
RealGun
Member
And how it got that way. Chicken or egg?
As an aside, if we have prohibitions concerning certain topics, a restriction I think is practical, it will be difficult to discuss issues facing Congress, today in the Senate in particular. Watch CSPAN if you can. Oh, we can gloss over issues, but discussion of how we got to this point will need to include forbidden topics to be on target. Might be a good time to take advantage of Armed Polite Society.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
My sons were kidnapped by government agents from their biological mother because:
There ARE worse things than government agents with the legal power to remove children from abusive and dangerous homes without the consent of the "parents" involved. Child abuse is one of them. The man who wrote that screed is fooling himself. If someone had falsely accused him of murder, rather than child abuse, would he have shot the officers who came to arrest him on the grounds that they were going to "kidnap him?"
By his own admission, he let the officer in, answered his questions, and then the officer left after apologizing. That is PRECISELY what should happen when false accusations are made, so what exactly did that officer do to deserve getting shot? If the officer had decided that the children needed to leave and the father needed to be arrested (and thus entitled to a fair trial before a jury of his peers with a lawyer and EVERYTHING) then he'd be committing such an atrocity by arresting a suspected child abuser that he should be shot to stop it from happening?
That is utterly ridiculous.
- She neglected them in favor of drugs and turning tricks.
- She couldn't be bothered to take them to a hospital when they drank acetone at the beauty shop.
- She locked them in a closet together when she wanted to "entertain" men.
- She had them eating at a table with rats on it.
There ARE worse things than government agents with the legal power to remove children from abusive and dangerous homes without the consent of the "parents" involved. Child abuse is one of them. The man who wrote that screed is fooling himself. If someone had falsely accused him of murder, rather than child abuse, would he have shot the officers who came to arrest him on the grounds that they were going to "kidnap him?"
By his own admission, he let the officer in, answered his questions, and then the officer left after apologizing. That is PRECISELY what should happen when false accusations are made, so what exactly did that officer do to deserve getting shot? If the officer had decided that the children needed to leave and the father needed to be arrested (and thus entitled to a fair trial before a jury of his peers with a lawyer and EVERYTHING) then he'd be committing such an atrocity by arresting a suspected child abuser that he should be shot to stop it from happening?
That is utterly ridiculous.
ravinraven
Member
We had a similar experience...
...years ago while I was in business. The RAT was a Commie Atheist so no church was involved. He was a prof and making about 10 times what I was and working about 3 to 5 hours per day. [I later became a prof and did the same thing---well, I did a bit more since I was in technology, but it was a fatter deal than running a small business] Anyway, Commie prof was jealous of me, I guess, because I was in the private sector. Our kids came home from school about a half hour before my wife got home and a couple hours before I got home. The RATs across the road decided to report us for child neglect even though the kids were all old enough to be alone and behaved way better than their own kids do today.
So along comes a deputy sheriff and makes the initial threat. Since he and I were pals from other actions and activities, I asked who had turned us in. He couldn't say. I did a bit of criminal impersonation with his orifice and found out who the RATS were.
There was a raft of paper work and hearings the result of which was apologies from the county social workers, etc. What about the RATS, you might ask. I'll never say what I did, but I can guarantee that they will never RAT on anyone again. Their daughter inherited the house and went into the crack business. Seems she had been neglected as a child and got to make some very lucrative connections just about before she could walk.
I left the little burg a few years after that.
rr
...years ago while I was in business. The RAT was a Commie Atheist so no church was involved. He was a prof and making about 10 times what I was and working about 3 to 5 hours per day. [I later became a prof and did the same thing---well, I did a bit more since I was in technology, but it was a fatter deal than running a small business] Anyway, Commie prof was jealous of me, I guess, because I was in the private sector. Our kids came home from school about a half hour before my wife got home and a couple hours before I got home. The RATs across the road decided to report us for child neglect even though the kids were all old enough to be alone and behaved way better than their own kids do today.
So along comes a deputy sheriff and makes the initial threat. Since he and I were pals from other actions and activities, I asked who had turned us in. He couldn't say. I did a bit of criminal impersonation with his orifice and found out who the RATS were.
There was a raft of paper work and hearings the result of which was apologies from the county social workers, etc. What about the RATS, you might ask. I'll never say what I did, but I can guarantee that they will never RAT on anyone again. Their daughter inherited the house and went into the crack business. Seems she had been neglected as a child and got to make some very lucrative connections just about before she could walk.
I left the little burg a few years after that.
rr
Not to mention that abuses of power by .gov are subject to judicial review in the form of lawsuits. More often than not, the offending agencies pay big settlements to the most egregiously victimized. That would most assuredly not happen in a totalitarian state. So there. 
auschip
Member
*Leave country without permission ... Easy enough. Drive to border. Cross.
*Buying gun without permission ... done. Private sales rule.
*Adding a toilet w/o permission ... never tried, but I don't see an issue with it.
*Starting a business w/o permission ... easy, I do it every time I contract to a company.
*Carry concealed w/o permission? Sure, my property my rules.
*Drive without a license? I have a license, but could drive without one if I wanted. Again, no license to drive on private land.
* Waltz by TSA? Private planes don't require TSA searches, you can even carry concealed on one if you wish.
No, my reference to 'private property' is an answer to billythekid statement inferring that US citizens could not 'do' certain things. He is incorrect, and my reference to 'private property' was a means of illustrating my point.
The counter-point being that anything the State does, including 'allowing' us to do anything, is because the People have given tacit approval to the actions of the State.
It is very easy to pontificate about the "STATE" , yet ignore the fact that every two, four, and six year period, the People are asked to do a 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' on the State.
The original article is a smokescreen. We, the People, have gotten exactly the government -- in size, and in deed -- that the People voted for. As allowed by the Constitution of the United States.
Not only that, but the People have re-voted the same type of government into power, time after time and again.
That's a Republic for you.
LawDog
longrifleman
Member
True. And that's why the problems will only get worse.
We might have to argue about that. The Supremes don't read the same Constitution I do.
The original article is a bit heavy on hyperbole, but the trend over time isn't encouraging. Come back in a generation and it will be much closer to the truth.
billythekid
member
- Joined
- May 17, 2005
- Messages
- 12
Sad....
There are too many slaves on this thread to even begin to address the issue.
Sad...
There are too many slaves on this thread to even begin to address the issue.
Sad...
I just dont get this "America is in a Decline" view. Compare the US of today to the US of 100 years ago and we are light years ahead of where we were. Sure the government is larger, but we also get a lot more service.
1905:
No or just the begining of food, drug, workplace law and administration. Minimal planning - wanna add a toilet, go right ahead, flush it into the gutter. Minimal public health mechanisms. Minimal to no child welfare regs. Little / no regulation of medical practice
Police training? Maybe in NYC, unlikely elsewhere
No Mapp, Miranda, Gideon, Escobedo, Terry, Graham, Brown v BoE. Heck, juveniles didnt get due process until the 60's.
When was sufferage and Jim Crow repealed?
So you could buy a machinegun for $2.50. If that was such a big deal, how come we all dont have machine guns we inherited from our grandparents? Because the need for or utility of a machinegun is marginal and few people bought them?
I think the good old days of freedom are largely illusory. We were much more of a slave state back when we were, uh, a slave state.
1905:
No or just the begining of food, drug, workplace law and administration. Minimal planning - wanna add a toilet, go right ahead, flush it into the gutter. Minimal public health mechanisms. Minimal to no child welfare regs. Little / no regulation of medical practice
Police training? Maybe in NYC, unlikely elsewhere
No Mapp, Miranda, Gideon, Escobedo, Terry, Graham, Brown v BoE. Heck, juveniles didnt get due process until the 60's.
When was sufferage and Jim Crow repealed?
So you could buy a machinegun for $2.50. If that was such a big deal, how come we all dont have machine guns we inherited from our grandparents? Because the need for or utility of a machinegun is marginal and few people bought them?
I think the good old days of freedom are largely illusory. We were much more of a slave state back when we were, uh, a slave state.
dasmi
Member
Because a lot of them were destroyed to comply with new laws.
Not relevant. Bill of Rights, not Bill of Needs.
kid....I am behind you...100%, slavery is sad, both imposed slavery and self imposed slavery.....as in failing to see beyond your chosen personal views of today...doing this ..you become a blind slave to yourself. If you feel you have no choices, or only allow others to make your choices... you choose to wear the shoes of a slave. best of luck, out there in our chosen world.
thereisnospoon
Member
Private Property...Hmmmm
Once again,
Looking back at my post, I do not believe I made myself clear.
YOUR "Private Property" is only your "Private Property" until the government wants or needs it.
Case in point: recently in Alabaster, Alabama a family was forced to sell property, I believe approx 400 acres, that had been in their family for a LONG TIME, because Wal-Mart wanted the property and the owners refused to sell to them. Their "Private Property" was seized by the local city Government under the "Imminent (?sp) Domain" rule, law or whatever. Wal-Mart then resold a large portionof that property as an out parcel.
So my point is, yeah, you can do what you want on your "Private Property", as long as the "State" doesn't want your "Private Property" for their own finacial gain, oops, I mean the good of the public.
Or for that matter, since its "your Private Property" why don't you convert a semi-automatic firearm to a full auto and see how long you can do that on your "Private Property", by the way isn't the gun yours to do with as you please since it is "Private Property"? And if the gun thing is moot, try filling in a "wetland" on your "Private Property". Lord knows the ducks need someplce to land when they are flying South.
I understand that we con not have a society without rules and regulations, but the problem is we have Lifetime Legislators that are mostly interested in keeping their own power base than protecting their citizens. If you have an argument for that I call "Denial".
All that being said, I'd still rather live here than, say, Uganda or Rwanda or any other Kountry.
Once again,
Looking back at my post, I do not believe I made myself clear.
YOUR "Private Property" is only your "Private Property" until the government wants or needs it.
Case in point: recently in Alabaster, Alabama a family was forced to sell property, I believe approx 400 acres, that had been in their family for a LONG TIME, because Wal-Mart wanted the property and the owners refused to sell to them. Their "Private Property" was seized by the local city Government under the "Imminent (?sp) Domain" rule, law or whatever. Wal-Mart then resold a large portionof that property as an out parcel.
So my point is, yeah, you can do what you want on your "Private Property", as long as the "State" doesn't want your "Private Property" for their own finacial gain, oops, I mean the good of the public.
Or for that matter, since its "your Private Property" why don't you convert a semi-automatic firearm to a full auto and see how long you can do that on your "Private Property", by the way isn't the gun yours to do with as you please since it is "Private Property"? And if the gun thing is moot, try filling in a "wetland" on your "Private Property". Lord knows the ducks need someplce to land when they are flying South.
I understand that we con not have a society without rules and regulations, but the problem is we have Lifetime Legislators that are mostly interested in keeping their own power base than protecting their citizens. If you have an argument for that I call "Denial".
All that being said, I'd still rather live here than, say, Uganda or Rwanda or any other Kountry.
billythekid
member
- Joined
- May 17, 2005
- Messages
- 12
This one should really keep it going...
First off, what is the difference between a "private" airplane and one owned by Pan Am? Pan Am is a "private" corporation, isn't it? So why should the owners of those big "private" jets have to go along with the FEDS feeling up all their passengers? If they were really PRIVATE they could arm their pilots and if someone wanted to hijack the plane it could be prevented. WITHOUT government interference.
As for sales of firearms, I was obviously referring to sales from a dealer. Why should anyone have to fill out a four page form now to purchase a firearm?
I can see I will be wasting my time here trying to convice people that they aren't free. They believe if they own a gun they are free.
Again:
NONE ARE MORE HOPELESSLY ENSLAVED AS THOSE WHO FALSELY BELIEVE THEY ARE FREE...
First off, what is the difference between a "private" airplane and one owned by Pan Am? Pan Am is a "private" corporation, isn't it? So why should the owners of those big "private" jets have to go along with the FEDS feeling up all their passengers? If they were really PRIVATE they could arm their pilots and if someone wanted to hijack the plane it could be prevented. WITHOUT government interference.
As for sales of firearms, I was obviously referring to sales from a dealer. Why should anyone have to fill out a four page form now to purchase a firearm?
I can see I will be wasting my time here trying to convice people that they aren't free. They believe if they own a gun they are free.
Again:
NONE ARE MORE HOPELESSLY ENSLAVED AS THOSE WHO FALSELY BELIEVE THEY ARE FREE...
auschip
Member
I once had to explain to a boss that large fonts are not a management style, and that it doesn't make it correct if it is colored letters or bold typeface. Just because someone says it in large Blue Letters, doesn't mean it is true.
I will submit, that None are more hopeless, then those who play chicken little on the internet.
True enough...
And if the Congress along with the President were actually The State the point would be valid.
But congress and the pres aren't The State at least not anymore. The real STATE is the federal bureaucracy and all the civil service folks that man it. That's where the real power is. All those alphabet agencies who administer everything are who really runs the STATE.
Heck - think about congressional staffs and who they are - yep - career civil servants.
Elected officials come and go but the bureaucracy is forever.
Think about it...
I fill out more paperwork buying a car than a gun. And it doesnt particularly bug me the The Man knows about my gun purchase. I havent seen any credible evidence of the conspiracy yet, but if ya got some I'd be happy to hear it. If I want hyperbole I'll watch the soaps.
TallPine
Member
Not hardly - we get to choose between greater or lesser evils to run that State.
Or maybe I missed a couple issues on the last ballot:
"Should the existing laws and constitution and all mechanisms for the enforcement thereof of the State of Montana be retained?" Yes|No
"Should the existing laws and constitution and all mechanisms for the enforcement thereof of the United States Federal Government be retained?" Yes|No
Is it *really* private property when you have to pay rent to the government every year or they take it from you? Try not paying your property taxes (aka RENT) and see what happens to your soverign "private property". I don't know about you, but it really chaps my butt paying $10k+ every year to the government for permission to keep my land & personal property.
longrifleman
Member
I think you are both right and wrong. Materially we are better off than any society in history. I would say in spite of govt, not because of it. As for govt "service", the problem I have is that I have no choice about wether I want the service or not. No matter how well you make your utilitarian argument for the benefit of the service, at the end of the day I have no choice about using it or paying for it. 1 pt. for btk.
Some improvements have come from the increase in govt power, but that has also caused a loss in other areas. Many would argue that the improvements in the civil rights area make up for any amount of loss of freedom in other areas, but I think that view is short sighted. The loss of property rights in the long run is going to destroy the country. tie
We are safer than any time in history, even though that has cost some freedoms. 1 pt centac
What worries me is the trend over time. The schools are doing a terrible job educating kids about the underlying philosophy that our system is based on. I think it is intentional. I've noticed that the attidude of almost blind acceptance of authority by the majority of people seems to be growing, and that scares me.
Keep screamin' billythe kid. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, you have, and I am.
But what actual freedoms have we lost?
We may have lost some conveniences, such as boarding a plane unsearched, but we can still get on the plane. If I want a maching gun I can still get one, it just isnt as convenient as it used to be. There may be surveillance cameras on the town square, but that's plain view anyway and it may (or may not, I havent seen the research) may make the town square less vulnerable.
IMHO people complain about the perception of a loss of freedom, rather than any actual loss of the ability to do anything. What actual freedom did we have in 1776 that we dont have now? I can still assemble, travel, worship, speak, read, vote, work and all the other things that are free. I may need to apply for a permit to hold a rally, but society has gotten increasingly complex, with side effects to match. Furthermore, if I dont like the way the things are going in one place I have the freedom to work for change or go someplace else.
And to a certain extent I want government interference. I want the feds to make sure my food isnt adulterated and that raw sewage isnt being dumped in the water and my pharmaceuticals are pure and that air traffic controllers are sober and all those other details we cannot do alone. It is easy to claim that we dont need the government, and it sure has problems, but the alternative smells bad and tastes funny.
We may have lost some conveniences, such as boarding a plane unsearched, but we can still get on the plane. If I want a maching gun I can still get one, it just isnt as convenient as it used to be. There may be surveillance cameras on the town square, but that's plain view anyway and it may (or may not, I havent seen the research) may make the town square less vulnerable.
IMHO people complain about the perception of a loss of freedom, rather than any actual loss of the ability to do anything. What actual freedom did we have in 1776 that we dont have now? I can still assemble, travel, worship, speak, read, vote, work and all the other things that are free. I may need to apply for a permit to hold a rally, but society has gotten increasingly complex, with side effects to match. Furthermore, if I dont like the way the things are going in one place I have the freedom to work for change or go someplace else.
And to a certain extent I want government interference. I want the feds to make sure my food isnt adulterated and that raw sewage isnt being dumped in the water and my pharmaceuticals are pure and that air traffic controllers are sober and all those other details we cannot do alone. It is easy to claim that we dont need the government, and it sure has problems, but the alternative smells bad and tastes funny.
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