Small Auto Comparison

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I would include the Kel-Tec P11 since it is the same overall length as the Kahr PM9 (as can be clearly seen by the rectangles). If you are going to mention performance, such as Rohrbaugh not being recommended for +P ammo, then it should also be mentioned that the P11 has a large amount of chamber leakage, defeating the purpose of hotter ammo, putting it back in the same performance class as that of the Rohrbaugh. I really don't think you have the space for all of the performance data - you may want to leave it up to the gun rags. What could be included is a simple one-liner that states the maximum practical kinetic energy that can be delivered by the gun - this could be gleaned from the owner's manual (sometimes) or by reading several test reports. I think what would be most useful to a potential buyer is "Maximum Kinetic Energy: 305 ft-lbs" (just using the Rohrbaugh data as an example).

I think that defining any gun that is 6" long and under being a pocket pistol is a good rule - I wouldn't change it. Besides, the 6" number seems to be a good breakpoint since I have not heard of a gun being exactly 6" long - they are all either well below or well above this line. For example, the next category up is the "sub-compact" which is occupied by guns such as the baby Glock at 6.6" overall - as we all know, this is not a pocket gun.
 
ok, but

1. It only takes one short tiny line to say "No +P" or "Federal Hydrashok is only recommended ammo" (Seecamp now recommend hydrashoks, not silvertip, for their .32), etc.; I mean just those things *specifically* recommended by the Manufacturer - this amounts to what is in fact a 'specification', if the manuf. says it. I would also like to see a one-word description of the operating type; i.e. "Straight Blowback" or "Locked Breech Blowback".

2. The KT P11 is 5.6" and the PM9 is 5.3" long, a difference of 3/10ths of an inch. ONLY 3/10ths of an inch, but they're not the 'same length'. Since the 5.2/5.3" of the PM9 and R9 are *already* way pushing the limit of a pocket pistol, IMO, that's why I suggested that the line be drawn there and no further. But hey, I see your point too, if'n you have big pockets - why not leave it in? - it IS very small, relative to many 9x19s. No biggie there.

Good chart, in any event.
 
The PM9 is not, I repeat not, 5.3" long. Bobo's rectangles clearly shows the PM9 and the Kel-tec P11 at the same length. As I said before, Kahr represents its length by "slide length" the same way Glock does. The last time I checked (which was last week), the Kahr PM9 came in at 5.621" overall length, including the grip!
 
the Kahr PM9 came in at 5.621"
Click to expand...

ahhh, ok, gotcha - then that factoid ought to be changed on the chart, as you said before. That's sounds about right - either a 6", or maybe a 5.75" limit would make sense.
 
Bob - apologies - I have been remiss and not done some weight checking ... post when you can and let us know if you have yourself gleaned any more info. I'll try then to fill what gaps I can.

Steve - indeed I think we could float this awhile - it has very handy ref' data and maybe too the pic at least could perhaps go to library status. Even if it gets updated again - even as is I'd suggest folks take a copy to keep.
 
Bobo,

Thanks for sharing your chart. I'm looking at purchasing a "micro" CCW fairly soon and your chart is a great help.

Mo
 
You might include the classic Browning M1910 aka the .380 Auto back in the 1960's.

It was a very smooth, modern looking pocket pistol with recessed sights and a primary grip safety. It was just under 6" by 4".

Geoff
Who had a certain fondness for it, in my youth it was the sidearm of the Store Detective at Lane Bryant (TM) in Cleveland, before they became a specialty shop under a group and kept a Quarter Million Buck$ in furs in the cold storage at any given moment. :cool:
 
GunGoBoom and Jeff Timm,

I didn't include the Kahr "M" series because they seem to have basically the same specs as the "P" series except that they weigh more because the "M" series has "M"etal frames and the "P" series has "P"olymer frames. For pocket carry I believe most people would opt for the lighter of the two. If I can squeeze in the added info I may add the "M" series info at a later date.

Please read the * Notes referring to Kahr specs. I don't have exact measurements except for the PM9 that ABBOBERG was kind enough to provide because Kahr lists the slide length not the overall length in their literature.
========================================================

GunGoBoom,

I agree that the more information on the chart the better. Such as what ammo is OK; DAO,DA/SA; slide locking or not, blowback style, etc. would be nice, but there is only so much room. That is why I included the web sites for each manufacturer. You should check them out, and even better order or download a catalog. The chart was never meant to be everything you will need to make a purchase decision, just a quick reference.
=========================================================

P95Carry,

I don't have any info on cartridge weights and magazine weights as yet. I will have to rely on others for that -- I don't have the means to do it myself.

I put in a request here http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001053.html because I thought re-loaders may have the info or be able to get it easily, but as you see I haven't received any useful responses.

As I've said before "Empty Weight" is very deceiving. I'd love to know how much the Kel-Tec P-11 actually weighs when carried -- eleven rounds of 9mm and a magazine probably weigh even more than the empty pistol itself! I really think that "Fully Loaded" would be a great addition and would only require adding one line to each spec.

=========================================================

Jeff Timm,

I haven't included anything that cannot be purchased new. I know there are some fine older candidates out there such as the Browning you mentioned, the Autauga, Colt Pony and Mustang, etc. The reasons: there is not enough room on the chart, I don't have the specs, pricing will vary greatly, and a line has to be drawn somewhere.
 
OK Bob well - best I can contribute is just re R9 and P3AT. As I said earlier I think R9 is 17 ounces ''all up'' but I'll check that again. I'll weigh separate rounds and mag - so we have those weights and then weigh whole deal. I'd like to think you can get same data from owners of many of those other guns shown - but may take a while!
 
P95Carry,

best I can contribute is just re R9 and P3AT. As I said earlier I think R9 is 17 ounces ''all up'' but I'll check that again. I'll weigh separate rounds and mag - so we have those weights and then weigh whole deal.
Click to expand...
Great! The weights on those two pistols will help and any info you get on cartridge and mag weights may allow computing weights on other 9mm and .380 guns also.

Hopefully others may be able to weigh mags, cartridges, and fully loaded guns and offer stats on those.
=====================================================

One other thought I had was to send the finished chart to the gun manufacturers for their input as far as accuracy goes before I offer it to the public next time. I would e-mail them the chart asking for any suggested corrections and give them seven days to respond before publishing the next version.

Anybody see any reason NOT to do this?
 
Bob -

OK here are some figures ..... small weights (ammo) done on powder scales - larger items on some old postal scales - OK to 1 ounce accuracy I reckon. Grain weights only kept to two decimal places, rounded.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
P3AT -

Gun empty - 7.4 ounces
Magazine empty (this does have 'pinky'' extension added) - 498 grain = 1.14 ounce
Ammo - Silver Bear FMJ - 92 grain bullet - 141 grain total = 0.32 ounce
Mag full (6 rounds) - 1.14 ounce
Total gun weight - with mag full +1 chambered - 10.8 ounce.

(I weighed also some DAG HP's - they were 147 grain total each = 0.34 ounce)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

R9 -

Gun empty - 12.8 ounce
Magazine empty - 656 grain = 1.5 ounces
Ammo - Gold Dot JHP 124 grain bullet - 192 grain total = 0.44 ounce
Mag full (6 rounds) - 4.1 ounce
Total gun weight with mag full +1 chambered - 16.8 ounce
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There ya go - as I said accuracy on larger weights I am afraid no better than +/- one ounce. Should give some guide tho hopefully. I hope you get some info back from other owners - maybe even post a new thread specially - we must have owners of all these among the membership.
 
P95Carry,

That's great! I'll add that info to the chart and some more that I was able to find here http://seecamp.com/SizeWeight.pdf , plus any good info I got from the manufacturers. I will use your 9mm and .380 weights to try to come up with totals for the other 9mm and .380 guns. I'll put a link in a new reply when I'm done.
 
P95Carry,

To be as consistant as possible, and since you stated that the larger weights may not be as accurate, I computed the full weights this way:

P3AT
7.40 Gun
1.14 Mag
2.24 Carts (.32 x 7)
-----
10.78 Fully Loaded


R9
12.80 Gun
1.50 Mag
3.08 Carts (.44 x 7)
-----
17.38 Fully Loaded
 
Yeah - guess that's Ok tho not sure two decimal places that necessary for final weight.! :)

True tho, there are some slight errors on heavier weights but the R9 does tho actually come out at just under the 17 ounce, pretty sure of that. I would tend to round that to 17 ounce - it is pretty darned close. In fact with P3AT we could all but say 11 ounce loaded - cos if the DAG ammo was used it would add a bit.

I don't think here mega accuracy to critical - just really a means of comparitive assessment. Anyways - do what you think works best! :)
 
This is the latest chart:
Pocket Auto Comparison (JPG)
Pocket Auto Comparison (PDF)

I will leave the chart at these locations and any future updates will be at these URL's as well.
======================================================

These are the changes made this time:

Added "Weight Fully Loaded" info and rounded it off to full ounces as P95Carry suggested.
(Still need cartridge weights for .32 NAA and .40 S&W rounds to complete the chart.)

Added basic "Operation" characteristics as GunGoBoom suggested.

Added to the notes that some pistols may have restrictions and/or limitations per GunGoBoom's suggestion.

Added www.mouseguns.com to the web sites list.
=======================================================

I think that once the .32 NAA and .40 S&W info gets added I will upload the chart one more time and ask the manufacturers to suggest corrections. I will change it one more time after that, then call it quits!
 
One other thing I changed and forgot to mention...

The Guardians come with two magazines -- one with and one without the finger extension.
I removed the finger extensions from the Guardians in the chart because it made them look larger than they really are, and the extensions are sort of optional anyway.
 
The charts don't like me.
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Click to expand...
 
Bob - yeah - a problem with links. Have to try and find another spot for these maybe - or again upload as attachment. I'll hold off a bit longer as there are changes - and go for the ''definitive'' later. Thx however for all the work you are putting in. :)
 
MaterDei,
Is this too large to qualify? It is clearly designed to be a CCW.
Click to expand...
It is called a CCW (Conceled Carry Weapon) but it is not a "Pocket" weapon. It is over six inches long which is the cut-off for the present chart.

Actually it is more than 6.3" as Kahr states. "Length O/A" which anyone would believe means "Length OverAll" is actually only the slide length not the overall length. Truth in advertising?
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BluesBear and P95Carry,

Sorry folks, I was trying to save bandwidth on the forum by not having to upload the file each time. I guess the location I used won't work. I'll try to find another. In the mean time here is the latest...
 

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