Small Auto Comparison

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A couple of apologies :eek: …
I was re-reading this thread and all the great input from members. In the process I caught a couple of things I missed before.
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GunGoBoom,
Also, is it spelled Seecamp, or Seacamp, as you spelled it?
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You're right, I fixed it for the next posting.
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ABBOBERG,
What could be included is a simple one-liner that states the maximum practical kinetic energy that can be delivered by the gun - this could be gleaned from the owner's manual (sometimes) or by reading several test reports. I think what would be most useful to a potential buyer is "Maximum Kinetic Energy: 305 ft-lbs" (just using the Rohrbaugh data as an example).
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You're also right about that info being relevant. I actually started to include it in the chart but I found that the info wasn't very easy to get. I wrote to one manufacturer and got this reply;
"We don't publish any pressure info... ...we guarantee the gun to withstand any ammo whose pressures fall within the industry-identified parameters (SAAMI)."

That's when I gave it up.

If you are able get all the info necessary and put it on this thread I'll be glad to add it on the next go-around.
 
Well, just got done replying to thread about the new Cobra line of pistols. Contrary to how many feel, I think that these pistols deserve a fair shake to see if they can mimic the success of Kel-tec, IMHO.
 
KONY,

Thanks for the input. I didn't know of these guns' existence. I'll add the CS32 and CS380 to the chart.
 
OK folks, here's the latest!
Pocket Auto Comparison Chart (JPG)
Pocket Auto Comparison Chart (PDF)
I believe everybody will be able to access these files.
When changes are made I will make them to these URLs so if you bookmark them or click on these you will always get the latest chart.
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Latest changes:
1. Added the Cobra pistols.
2. Waiting for "Frame Material" and "Width" info from Cobra.
3. Added Cobra to web site list.
4. Updated "Empty Weights" so all pistols include empty magazine.
5. Added new note to this affect.
6. Updated Guardian 32NAA with Fully Loaded number.

Still missing:
1. Cobra info as stated above.
2. .40S&W cartridge weights for the Kahr "Fully loaded" info.
 
Originally posted by ABBOBERG
The PM9 is not, I repeat not, 5.3" long. Bobo's rectangles clearly shows the PM9 and the Kel-tec P11 at the same length. As I said before, Kahr represents its length by "slide length" the same way Glock does. The last time I checked (which was last week), the Kahr PM9 came in at 5.621" overall length, including the grip!
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the R9 is not, I repeat not, .81" wide across the grips, which make up a significant surface area of the gun as a whole (as opposed to a ¼" slide stop lever); its closer to .88", by most accounts
Originally posted by BOBO
Truth in advertising?
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see above
great work on the chart, BTW
 
This is an attempt at a Handgun Measurement Specification Standard. I welcome any comments and suggestions.
Handgun Measurement Specification Standard (JPG)
Handgun Measurement Specification Standard (PDF)
When changes are made I will make them to these URLs so if you bookmark them or click on these you will always get the latest standard.

I'd be willing to bet that the width and height dimensions of most pistols get larger if this suggested standard is used.

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DaleJunior and P95Carry,
Thanks for the correct width dimension on the R9. I'll update the chart.

What about the Height dimension -- does it include the sight, magazine, and magazine release?
The height should be different for the R9 and R9S because one has sights and one doesn't. I could show this fact on the chart.
 
Re Handgun Measurement Spec Std

FWIW, my personal opinion is that small protuberances (i.e. mag release buttons or mag heels, slide stop levers, take-down pins, etc.) should not cause you to adjust the overall dimensions of the guns, as they do not comprise a significant enough surface area of the gun so as to change its concealability; pockets and waistbands are made of cloth, not rigid plastic or steel -- your gun isn't going to suddenly print b/c of that mag release button

sights may be the exception, as this is the only protuberance of the gun that holsters can't be molded around w/o causing serious draw issues
 
I think that the amount that the slide lever sticks out is important, since, after all, we are talking about "pocket" pistols here, and you can definitely feel the huge slide release on the Kahr PM9 when it is in the pocket without a holster. I think that the overall width should include the take down lever at least as a separate item - that keeps pressure on the manufacturers to minimize this protruberance for "pocket" category guns. I don't understand why Kahr and others didn't attempt to copy the ultra-flat Glock slide release - it is the ultimate design for pocket-style pistols.
 
DaleJunior and ABBOBERG,
It looks like we have this identical discussion going on two forums. I would like to keep it on one because it is more work for me on two. I would like to keep it on The Highroad because this forum is more "generic" than the other one. Is it proper forum etiquette to send the people on the other forum over here, or is it a no-no?
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Maybe there should be two measurements.

Maybe there should be a "Bulk" size and an "Overall" size. (There may be better words to use than "bulk" and "overall".)
Similar to having two weights "Empty" and "Fully loaded"

The "Bulk" size would be the size of the major bulk of the guns including large protuberances such as beavertails and hammers and would exclude sights, safeties, etc., but would include grips. Just the slide width would not be OK.
The "Overall" size would be the size with all protuberances no matter how small.
 
Originally posted by ABBOBERG
...you can definitely feel the huge slide release on the Kahr PM9 when it is in the pocket without a holster.
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you can also get shocked when you stick your finger into an electrical outlet; not certain a person with common sense needs to concern himself with either scenario

BOBO, that bulk/overall definition seems fair, although will you have room for all that on that chart?
 
DaleJunior,
I'm pretty sure I could fit the info in if I had it. I'd probably do it something like this:

Dimensions Bulk/Overall (in inches):
Length: 5.00/5.00
Height: 4.25/4.50
Width: 0.90/1.02

There would be an explanation of "Bulk" and "Overall" in the notes.

As far as Bulk and Overall goes, in most cases the Length would have the same dimensions, the Height and Width may be different or may not.


The big problem would be in getting the measurements for all the guns.

At this point manufacturers don't have that information and I don't think I'm important enough for them to get it for me. I'm not even sure how the various guns were measured by the manacturers for the figures I have now! Some may be "Bulk", some may be "Overall", some may be a combination of both. I'm almost positive some Widths given are "slide only".

I'd have to somehow contact owners of each pistol and rely on them for dimensions. I'm not sure how I'd do this efficiently. Any ideas?
 
I added a "ghost hand" to help with grip and size comparison.
Also added a note of explanation.
 
I like the ghost hand. But since there are so many differently sized and porportioned hands I question its effectivness.

However superimposing the guns on a more readily identifible object could be good. Something everyone will recognize.
Such as a dollar bill or a playing card?
 
BluesBear,
I like the ghost hand. But since there are so many differently sized and porportioned hands I question its effectivness.

However superimposing the guns on a more readily identifible object could be good. Something everyone will recognize.
Such as a dollar bill or a playing card?
Click to expand...
When I added the ghost hand I also added this note in an attempt to make the ghost hand more meaningful. Maybe it still needs more clarification?
7. The hand grip shown is a men’s glove size large with the first finger segment of the index finger on the trigger.


The gun photos have a white background so superimposing them over another object would be difficult because the white background would hide the object behind.

I could change the 4" square to a dollar bill size or a playing card size rectangle.

A dollar bill is 6.25" long, longer than the 6" maximum size of the guns in the chart. It would make the columns wider and probably wouldn't work as well as the 4" square for showing proportion.

A playing card shape may work OK. A playing card is 3.5" x 2.63". Do you think a playing card shape may be better than the 4" square?

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I'm going to make this acknowledgment just this once because I don't want to use up valuable forum bandwidth with multiple "thanks-for-the-thanks".
Thanks to all who have helped and will continue to help to make this chart a useful tool, and thanks to all who have voiced their appreciation for the chart.
—Bobo
 
Thank you for this outstanding job. The PDF file is just great, with no fuzziness.

My hat is off to you!
 
I think that a playing card-sized rectangle would be worse than a 4x4" square because now you are going to a rectangle and with varying computer screen distortion people will not know what are the actual proportions. If they are told it is a 4x4 square, and looks like a rectangle, this corrected either by eye, or by resetting the screen scale.
 
FEATHERWEIGHT,
Just for comparison sake would you include a 642 Smith J frame in your comparison. Great thread
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The chart is for automatics -- less than six inches long.
Why should it contain a revolver -- more than six inches long?
 
Why should it contain a revolver -- more than six inches long?
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Well, I would think, because nearly everyone is familiar with the weight and feel, in their own hands, of an airweight snub revolver. So it could be used as a comparison to illustrate the size and weight differences.

Many people so not realize that you can have a longer effective barrel length in an automatic than you can in a revolver of the same size because the automatic's design puts the chamber farther reaward.
Or that an all steel automatic can sometimes weight the same as or less than an alloy revolver.

So while a revolver may not technically belong in the chart, it could be beneficial.
 
You make a valid point Bear - BUT - poor Bob has put so much into the current chart I doubt he'd want to do any more changes! He has done a great job.

I guess if he or someone had the patience - a comparison of all snubs would be handy! :)
 
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