Small base dies

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zxcvbob

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I have a set of Lee .223 dies that I'm generally happy with. But I'm thinking of getting a small-base die for the first reloading of range-pick-up cases, and especially for steel cases. I'm loading for a Mini-14.

If I get the RCBS small base sizing die, is there any reason to get the seating die too, since I already have a Lee seating die? (The RCBS set doesn't cost all that much more than just the sizing die by itself, but it does cost a little more)
 
why do you think you need a small base sizer?

Because I get failures to eject, mostly but not entirely when I'm reloading steel cases. And I'm shooting a semiauto. (It really is the combination of the two.)
 
I use the small base dies for my auto loading .308. Which is the only situation one may need a SBD. You will not need it for any .223 firearm. I have the RCBS set in .308 and the Lee set in .223. The Lee seating die with the factory crimp die is better. The RCBS seating die with taper crimp is a pain to set up. I had to abandon the taper crimp and pick up a Lee crimp die. If you're having 100% reliability with the Lee set, the stick with it.
 
Small base dies only help will chambering not extraction. You may be under gased, worn spring or extractor.
 
Small base dies only help will chambering not extraction. You may be under gased, worn spring or extractor.

That's an interesting theory. Thanks. The gun is practically new, less than 200 rounds thru it.

I thought it might be a steel cases vs. brass thing. Modulus of elasticity, yield strength, and all that.
 
Then, I would also have to agree with the steel case theory. I have stayed away from anything other then brass for reloading, even tho the silver brass is easier to spot and pick-up.

Since brass does cool down faster then steel. The steel cases may be "expanded" longer and thus harder to pull out. Next time you shoot, see if the steel is landing at the same spot as the brass. if the steel is landing more forward, or flying out lower(since the mini ejects upward), then that may be the issue.
 
I use the small base dies for my auto loading .308. Which is the only situation one may need a SBD. You will not need it for any .223 firearm.

For the same reasons that you want small base sizing for your 308, are the same reasons that you may need small base sizing for a semi-auto 223 Remington. This is particularly true when cases were not fired in the rifle.

But, I will agree, if the cases chamber after resizing, small base sizers are not needed.
 
And then there is trying to reload steel cases in the first place.

IMO: It's just not worth the hassle, as you are finding out.

Besides that, Russian ammo is for Russian rifles.

rc
 
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Stop loading steel cases. That's ridiculous! :rolleyes: You probably don't need small base dies. I've reloaded tens of thousands of rounds of .223s for shooting through my ARs. Never needed a small base die, and my ARs never fail.
 
Small base dies only help will chambering not extraction.
I disagree. You start out with an interference fit you will end up with a greater interference fit after combustion.

CaseExpansion.jpg

If you are using steel cases let me recommend you leave the sizing lube on the cases. Some steel cases come “polymer” coated already, the “polymer” breaks the friction between case and chamber and helps prevent rust. (oil is a polymer and so is wax) I don’t know the coefficient of friction between steel and steel but I will bet it is higher than the coefficient of friction between steel and brass. Leaving the case lube on will make extraction easier and function better.
 
Take the money you are willing to spend on the die and buy brass cases. I load steel 45 cases for lost brass matches but would never use steel 223 as long as brass is available.
 
I load for several AR's and Mini-14's. I've always used the small base dies just for a measure of insurance. They work very well when loading for multiple firearms.
 
FWIW, I have never heard of anyone trying to reload steel cases.

Should we just send Bob a few handfuls of brass cases??? I am sure I will never use all that I have.
 
I use SB dies for .223, 308, and 30-06 cases I pick up at the range, and for mil/surp I have purchased.

It is simply good insurance that the rounds will all chamber in the rifles I use them in. It is a one time thing when I go through them the first time and prep the whole bucket's worth. After that they are fine using standard FL dies.

There are simply too many different types of rifles and chambers firing rounds nowadays, for me to be hopeful that all of the reloaded rounds will chamber fine in my rifles. Might be overkill, but all of my ammo is 100% reliable once I process it. There have only been a few times when a round failed to fully chamber due to being over or out of spec, but those were too many, and thats why I do what I do now.
 
I've had a couple of misfires where there was no mark on the primer -- always with reloaded ammo (brass.) I assume it wasn't chambered enough for the locking lugs to full engage and some kind of firing pin block saved me from an out-of-battery. I really don't want to depend on that.

The steel cases are because I'm a tinkerer. Too many people said "you can't reloaded steel cases" so I had to do it just because :) Once I have mastered reloading steel cases or decided that they cannot be mastered, I will quit using them unless it's an emergency.

I ordered a set of RCBS small-based dies; got them cheap. I'm going to start using them the first resizing of any brass that didn't come from my gun.

Thanks for offering to take up a collection for me! :D
 
I'm always amused by authoritative-sounding posts based on a false premise. None of my reloads for any of my firearms are "interference fit." :cool:
 
I'm always amused by authoritative-sounding posts based on a false premise. None of my reloads for any of my firearms are "interference fit."

I have no idea of how you reload or the quality of your reloads.

But on the firing line I have kicked out a number of rounds that were insufficiently sized by the shooter. These are typically new shooters, they buy a match AR15, which have tight chambers, the brass they are firing are range pickups or once fired military, both types fired in huge chambers, their standard sizing dies do not reduce the brass enough, and they have failures to extract.

The worst is when they can't close the bolt to fire their AR and the unfired round is stuck in the chamber. Then we have to put the safety on, disassemble the halves, and then we try to figure out where to go from there.

Knocking out loaded rounds with a cleaning rod have caused injuries when the round comes out and the primer hits something. Knocking out loaded rounds out of a firearm is something that needs lots of thought.

If you have not seen jams from "interference fit" cases then shoot twenty years of High Power Rifle matches. You will see a few.
 
I'm always amused by authoritative-sounding posts based on a false premise. None of my reloads for any of my firearms are "interference fit."

I have no idea of how you reload or the quality of your reloads.

But on the firing line I have kicked out a number of rounds that were insufficiently sized by the shooter. These are typically new shooters, they buy a match AR15, which have tight chambers, the brass they are firing are range pickups or once fired military, both types fired in huge chambers, their standard sizing dies do not reduce the brass enough, and they have failures to extract.

The worst is when they can't close the bolt to fire their AR and the unfired round is stuck in the chamber. Then we have to put the safety on, disassemble the halves, and then we try to figure out where to go from there.

Knocking out loaded rounds with a cleaning rod have caused injuries when the round comes out and the primer hits something. Knocking out loaded rounds out of a firearm is something that needs lots of thought.

If you have not seen jams from "interference fit" cases then shoot twenty years of High Power Rifle matches. You will see a few.[/QUOTE]

Or having it be the second, third, or fourth round in the magazine of a bolt action while the hunter is in the midst of a pack of hogs. Trust me with adrenalin pumping, and the bolt handle being racked to cover a second or third shot, one can cram a round into a chamber more than tight enough to ruin a weekend hunt. Better yet, as mentioned above, is the driving out of the stuck round. In one case where it happened to me, I was on a week long hunt, ruined by one round of ammo, 15 minutes into the first day. Yep I got it out, but it took driving the bullet back into the case, after which the rifle had to be tilted muzzle down and the bullet held up to allow the powder to pour out. Once that was done then we could get a solid hit on the bullet which deformed plenty in the case making even more of a mess.

It all came out with no damage to the rifle, but it was more than enough aggravation to easily cover the cost of the SB die to make certain it never happened again.

But to each his own. I still check my rounds now as I did before and they chambered fine even the one that stuck. Where I messed up was I didn't chamber it from the magazine giving it a chance to load from any angle, or with any resistance. Once I tried that with the rest of the box I had loaded nearly half of them wanted to stick as I closed the bolt. Knowing what to expect they were easily knocked loose with no issue. Now they are loaded into the magazine and chambers as if I am taking multiple shots one after the other as fast as I can rack them through. Witht he SB sizing I have not had another instance of any of them even being close to a snug or tight fit.

Take it however you want, as mentioned if it hasn't happened, you haven't been shooting or loading long enough. I've only been at it for 40yrs, and had it happen to me three, maybe four times in all of that. The worst however was as mentioned above on the first day of a week long hunt. It would have been even worse had I been in a SD situation where myself or my family might have been at risk. I don't worry about that anymore either.
 
" None of my reloads for any of my firearms are "interference fit." "

Ditto.

I sure haven't seen every rifle ever made but I've not seen (or reliably heard of) any standard SAAMI chambered rifle having a problem chambering ammo properly reloaded with standard dies. ONLY those people who have rebarreled and paid for a tight "match" chamber seem to require small base dies for the ammo to properly load and lock. And I strongly question the supposed 'improved' accuracy of such chambers in an autoloader but we sure hear a lot of moving air about how great they are!

IF I were into match shooting with an auto I'd get a premium barrel with a standard chamber. I would expect to obtain just as much effective accuracy as those who use cranky 'match' chambers and I'd do it with MUCH less trouble!
 
But on the firing line I have kicked out a number of rounds that were insufficiently sized by the shooter. These are typically new shooters, they buy a match AR15, which have tight chambers, the brass they are firing are range pickups or once fired military, both types fired in huge chambers, their standard sizing dies do not reduce the brass enough, and they have failures to extract.
You assume that it was a problem with the dies and not the reloader's use of the dies. Typically new shooters means likely even newer to reloading and a lack of skill or knowledge in that area as well. Just because they didn't size the case enough doesn't mean that the dies that they had were incapable of doing so and certainly doesn't make the case for needing a small base die.
 
You assume that it was a problem with the dies and not the reloader's use of the dies. Typically new shooters means likely even newer to reloading and a lack of skill or knowledge in that area as well.

While I will not say the reloader does not have a problem, but with 223 Rem./5.56 AR platform, there are enough different chambers out there that poor chambering can be a die problem. As Slamfire1 said, it is generally with range pick ups that were not fired in the reloader's rifle.

Generally, it is an accumulation of tolerances between the die and the various chambers that prevents the body of the case from being sized small enough. the shoulder is set back adequately. This accumulation of tolerances does not happen with all combinations of rifles and dies. But enough of them.

I have one such standard full length sizing die. I learned the hard way in a match and I had been reloading for 25 years at the time.

Too many reloaders feel that since they have never had a problem with chambering resized cases in their one AR platform rifle, the situation does not exist.

As a result of my experience and subsequent experimentation with several rifles and three different resizing dies, I was able to replicate the non-chambering problem due to an over size case body at will. As a result, I small base size all of my 223 Remington cases used in my AR platform rifles.
 
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