Our condo is seriously small. Shooting a home invader is one thing, and penetrating the sheet rock and thereby accidentally shooting a next door neighbor is a whole 'nuther thing. Assuming 9mm ammo and a Beretta 92A1, what ammo would you recommend to (a) stop the invader and (b) not dangerously penetrate the sheet rock?
Small condo defense 9mm - penetration of common wall (multiple threads merged)
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gamestalker
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That's a common concern and isn't just issolated to appartment living conditions. Most of us have to consider the same collateral damage within our own home with family member's sleeping in another room. I would try a few different bullet and powder combinations that will deliver lower velocity and quick expansion. Maybe someone out there knows of a good combination, but I'm guessing it will be a tough nut to crack.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I'd go high velocity, with a light JHP bullet.
Rapid expansion will stop the lighter bullet in the target BG, where a heavier slower bullet that didn't expand as much might plow on through.
However, if you miss the BG, no 9mm JHP bullet will be stopped by a sheet rock wall.
The only exception might be Mag-Safe type frangable ammo.
rc
Rapid expansion will stop the lighter bullet in the target BG, where a heavier slower bullet that didn't expand as much might plow on through.
However, if you miss the BG, no 9mm JHP bullet will be stopped by a sheet rock wall.
The only exception might be Mag-Safe type frangable ammo.
rc
http://frangibleammo.com/catalog/37dd4894-cb34-436d-8915-81c98a2934a3.aspx
This is one type of ammo that breaks up when it hits something hard (walls). Another type is the compressed balls in a jacket, can't remember the name right now. Glaser Safety Slug, that's it. Also breaks up when it encounters anything solid/hard...
Google "self defence ammunition".
This is one type of ammo that breaks up when it hits something hard (walls). Another type is the compressed balls in a jacket, can't remember the name right now. Glaser Safety Slug, that's it. Also breaks up when it encounters anything solid/hard...
Google "self defence ammunition".
Red Cent
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Bernie Lomax
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I second that. Also, get an extended mag. Concealability is not an issue in home defense scenarios, so there's no reason not to.
Toforo
Member
^ THAT ^
Is it a true "condo" by definition or a townhouse or an apartment?
(and how old is it/when was it built)
MOST "condos" (one story units) aren't connected to the adjoining condos by a simple "dry-wall" seperation.... if it's even halfway modern, it's at a MINIMUM of cinderblock in the middle and even concrete walls - THEN "studs" and drywall on both sides.
Same with townhouses (multi-floor units) and duplexes - cinderblock AND/or concrete between the units, depending on what the local building and fire codes are
SOME "apartments" (depending again on local building and fire codes) need only have the drywall...... and some of the newer ones require concrete or cinderblocks.
ssyoumans
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Thinking outside the box and your parameters, and probably not the answer you are looking for, but this would offer superior stopping power with less penetration. Duplex #2 & #4 would be the safest option. Any 9mm load other than the Glasers are going to over penetrate.
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshells/home-defense/home-defense-loads.aspx
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshells/home-defense/home-defense-loads.aspx
Small condo defense 9mm - penetration of common wall
We live in a really, really tiny condo in South Florida. I'm looking for a 9mm home defense round for a pistol that will be useful but not go through the common wall and injure my neighbor.
Right now, I'm operating on the presumption of penetrable walls, and if they turn out to less rather than more penetrable - well, that will be the cherry on top. I also am theorizing with the presumption that here in south Florida, the home invader will not be wearing four layers of denim or any such thick clothing. If he or she or they wear soft armor, all bets are off anyway.
Here are my candidates in 9mm, in no particular order of importance:
(1) Cor-Bon +P 90 gr JHP; flash suppressed powder; muzzle 1500 fps, 450 ft. lbs. I have no other data or testing on this round, but in theory - it's fast, it's light, it will have earlier expansion and less penetration. At the likely 2 yds. at which it would be fired at a home invader [to which reference is hereinafter made as "perp"], fired as many times as I'm still capable as firing it . . . maybe as good as anything else.
(2) Cor-Bon +P 100gr "Powerball". Muzzle 1475 fps, 483 ft. lbs. This is a JHP with a plastic ball in the hollow part. From testing I've read, it lacks the penetration we'd want in a street round, and it is known to lose its jacket in the perp. The good news: It hits hard but is highly unlikely to penetrate a common wall and remain life threatening.
(3) Cor-Bon 95 gr DPX. From 3.1" barrel, muzzle 1300 fps, 356 ft. lbs. Solid copper hollow point. From tests I've read, penetrates beyond what would be expected of this weight in a conventional JHP lead, and loses virtually no weight at terminus. Lacks FBI required penetration, but still gets in there and does some work. Could be the compromise winner - do you think?
(4) Fiocchi 92 gr Mono-Block. Not unlike the DPX projectile. Have no further information at this time.
(5) Double-Tap 80 gr solid copper Barnes DPX type projectile, same construction, muzzle 1560 fps, 433 ft. lbs. Would expect even less penetration that Cor-Bon 95 gr DPX, but still enough to enter the perp.
(6) Yes, the very interesting Federal EMJ 105 gr Guard Dog, muzzle 1230 fps, 353 ft. lbs. Projectile is lead free, copper and some kind of plastic. NO loss of mass at terminus, and expansion and weight tending to indicate over-penetration no concern. Test I've read indicates hard frontal hit, less than FBI required penetration. Manufactured and marketed as home defense with "safe" level of penetration. Seriously - if you were a perp wearing south Florida regular - would YOU just brush this off because the penetration isn't FBI minimum?
I would choose none of these outside of this tiny condo. But they seem to have the characteristics that would allow me to "first, do no harm" to my neighbor and second, screw up the perp enough to make a difference - especially when hit at 7 ft in the head.
Your thoughts?
We live in a really, really tiny condo in South Florida. I'm looking for a 9mm home defense round for a pistol that will be useful but not go through the common wall and injure my neighbor.
Right now, I'm operating on the presumption of penetrable walls, and if they turn out to less rather than more penetrable - well, that will be the cherry on top. I also am theorizing with the presumption that here in south Florida, the home invader will not be wearing four layers of denim or any such thick clothing. If he or she or they wear soft armor, all bets are off anyway.
Here are my candidates in 9mm, in no particular order of importance:
(1) Cor-Bon +P 90 gr JHP; flash suppressed powder; muzzle 1500 fps, 450 ft. lbs. I have no other data or testing on this round, but in theory - it's fast, it's light, it will have earlier expansion and less penetration. At the likely 2 yds. at which it would be fired at a home invader [to which reference is hereinafter made as "perp"], fired as many times as I'm still capable as firing it . . . maybe as good as anything else.
(2) Cor-Bon +P 100gr "Powerball". Muzzle 1475 fps, 483 ft. lbs. This is a JHP with a plastic ball in the hollow part. From testing I've read, it lacks the penetration we'd want in a street round, and it is known to lose its jacket in the perp. The good news: It hits hard but is highly unlikely to penetrate a common wall and remain life threatening.
(3) Cor-Bon 95 gr DPX. From 3.1" barrel, muzzle 1300 fps, 356 ft. lbs. Solid copper hollow point. From tests I've read, penetrates beyond what would be expected of this weight in a conventional JHP lead, and loses virtually no weight at terminus. Lacks FBI required penetration, but still gets in there and does some work. Could be the compromise winner - do you think?
(4) Fiocchi 92 gr Mono-Block. Not unlike the DPX projectile. Have no further information at this time.
(5) Double-Tap 80 gr solid copper Barnes DPX type projectile, same construction, muzzle 1560 fps, 433 ft. lbs. Would expect even less penetration that Cor-Bon 95 gr DPX, but still enough to enter the perp.
(6) Yes, the very interesting Federal EMJ 105 gr Guard Dog, muzzle 1230 fps, 353 ft. lbs. Projectile is lead free, copper and some kind of plastic. NO loss of mass at terminus, and expansion and weight tending to indicate over-penetration no concern. Test I've read indicates hard frontal hit, less than FBI required penetration. Manufactured and marketed as home defense with "safe" level of penetration. Seriously - if you were a perp wearing south Florida regular - would YOU just brush this off because the penetration isn't FBI minimum?
I would choose none of these outside of this tiny condo. But they seem to have the characteristics that would allow me to "first, do no harm" to my neighbor and second, screw up the perp enough to make a difference - especially when hit at 7 ft in the head.
Your thoughts?
Condo home defense - common wall penetration
We live in a really, really tiny condo in South Florida. I'm looking for a 9mm home defense round for a pistol that will be useful but not go through the common wall and injure my neighbor.
Right now, I'm operating on the presumption of penetrable walls, and if they turn out to less rather than more penetrable - well, that will be the cherry on top. I also am theorizing with the presumption that here in south Florida, the home invader will not be wearing four layers of denim or any such thick clothing. If he or she or they wear soft armor, all bets are off anyway.
Here are my candidates in 9mm, in no particular order of importance:
(1) Cor-Bon +P 90 gr JHP; flash suppressed powder; muzzle 1500 fps, 450 ft. lbs. I have no other data or testing on this round, but in theory - it's fast, it's light, it will have earlier expansion and less penetration. At the likely 2 yds. at which it would be fired at a home invader [to which reference is hereinafter made as "perp"], fired as many times as I'm still capable as firing it . . . maybe as good as anything else.
(2) Cor-Bon +P 100gr "Powerball". Muzzle 1475 fps, 483 ft. lbs. This is a JHP with a plastic ball in the hollow part. From testing I've read, it lacks the penetration we'd want in a street round, and it is known to lose its jacket in the perp. The good news: It hits hard but is highly unlikely to penetrate a common wall and remain life threatening.
(3) Cor-Bon 95 gr DPX. From 3.1" barrel, muzzle 1300 fps, 356 ft. lbs. Solid copper hollow point. From tests I've read, penetrates beyond what would be expected of this weight in a conventional JHP lead, and loses virtually no weight at terminus. Lacks FBI required penetration, but still gets in there and does some work. Could be the compromise winner - do you think?
(4) Fiocchi 92 gr Mono-Block. Not unlike the DPX projectile. Have no further information at this time.
(5) Double-Tap 80 gr solid copper Barnes DPX type projectile, same construction, muzzle 1560 fps, 433 ft. lbs. Would expect even less penetration that Cor-Bon 95 gr DPX, but still enough to enter the perp.
(6) Yes, the very interesting Federal EMJ 105 gr Guard Dog, muzzle 1230 fps, 353 ft. lbs. Projectile is lead free, copper and some kind of plastic. NO loss of mass at terminus, and expansion and weight tending to indicate over-penetration no concern. Test I've read indicates hard frontal hit, less than FBI required penetration. Manufactured and marketed as home defense with "safe" level of penetration. Seriously - if you were a perp wearing south Florida regular - would YOU just brush this off because the penetration isn't FBI minimum?
I would choose none of these outside of this tiny condo. But they seem to have the characteristics that would allow me to "first, do no harm" to my neighbor and second, screw up the perp enough to make a difference - especially when hit at 7 ft in the head.
Your thoughts?
We live in a really, really tiny condo in South Florida. I'm looking for a 9mm home defense round for a pistol that will be useful but not go through the common wall and injure my neighbor.
Right now, I'm operating on the presumption of penetrable walls, and if they turn out to less rather than more penetrable - well, that will be the cherry on top. I also am theorizing with the presumption that here in south Florida, the home invader will not be wearing four layers of denim or any such thick clothing. If he or she or they wear soft armor, all bets are off anyway.
Here are my candidates in 9mm, in no particular order of importance:
(1) Cor-Bon +P 90 gr JHP; flash suppressed powder; muzzle 1500 fps, 450 ft. lbs. I have no other data or testing on this round, but in theory - it's fast, it's light, it will have earlier expansion and less penetration. At the likely 2 yds. at which it would be fired at a home invader [to which reference is hereinafter made as "perp"], fired as many times as I'm still capable as firing it . . . maybe as good as anything else.
(2) Cor-Bon +P 100gr "Powerball". Muzzle 1475 fps, 483 ft. lbs. This is a JHP with a plastic ball in the hollow part. From testing I've read, it lacks the penetration we'd want in a street round, and it is known to lose its jacket in the perp. The good news: It hits hard but is highly unlikely to penetrate a common wall and remain life threatening.
(3) Cor-Bon 95 gr DPX. From 3.1" barrel, muzzle 1300 fps, 356 ft. lbs. Solid copper hollow point. From tests I've read, penetrates beyond what would be expected of this weight in a conventional JHP lead, and loses virtually no weight at terminus. Lacks FBI required penetration, but still gets in there and does some work. Could be the compromise winner - do you think?
(4) Fiocchi 92 gr Mono-Block. Not unlike the DPX projectile. Have no further information at this time.
(5) Double-Tap 80 gr solid copper Barnes DPX type projectile, same construction, muzzle 1560 fps, 433 ft. lbs. Would expect even less penetration that Cor-Bon 95 gr DPX, but still enough to enter the perp.
(6) Yes, the very interesting Federal EMJ 105 gr Guard Dog, muzzle 1230 fps, 353 ft. lbs. Projectile is lead free, copper and some kind of plastic. NO loss of mass at terminus, and expansion and weight tending to indicate over-penetration no concern. Test I've read indicates hard frontal hit, less than FBI required penetration. Manufactured and marketed as home defense with "safe" level of penetration. Seriously - if you were a perp wearing south Florida regular - would YOU just brush this off because the penetration isn't FBI minimum?
I would choose none of these outside of this tiny condo. But they seem to have the characteristics that would allow me to "first, do no harm" to my neighbor and second, screw up the perp enough to make a difference - especially when hit at 7 ft in the head.
Your thoughts?
LiveLife
Member
+1. I observed first hand (I wasn't the shooter
) 45ACP Hydra-Shok JHP accidentally discharge and shot through the sheetrock/stucco wall of an apartment building and proceeded to go through the stucco/sheetrock of an adjacent apartment building before coming to a stop by embedding in the wood frame of the couch. When the bullet was recovered, there was essentially no expansion as the sheetrock filled the JHP hole and basically acted like a RN.My guess is that most 9mm JHP would probably do the same under similar conditions.
For me, I would worry less about over-penetration and concentrate more on accuracy shot drills/range practice and load my HD pistols with premium JHP.
Gordon_Freeman
Member
It looks like all of these rounds would penetrate a wall. If you're that worried about it, use shotgun birdshot. Or you could always try to be aware of what is behind the bad guy when shooting 9mm.
Aaron Baker
Member
Really?
So you want to find a particular load that will do damage to the "perp" when you make a headshot, but won't kill your neighbor through the wall?
I'm trying to keep this High Road...
How about your practice making body shots, and not missing?
If your condo is really, really small, then what is the longest possible shot you'd have to make? 7 yards? Just aim for center mass, like you should be doing anyway, and don't miss.
On the upside, if you use a less expensive load, you can practice shooting it more.
Aaron
So you want to find a particular load that will do damage to the "perp" when you make a headshot, but won't kill your neighbor through the wall?
I'm trying to keep this High Road...
How about your practice making body shots, and not missing?
If your condo is really, really small, then what is the longest possible shot you'd have to make? 7 yards? Just aim for center mass, like you should be doing anyway, and don't miss.
On the upside, if you use a less expensive load, you can practice shooting it more.
Aaron
Cosmoline
Member
What are the common walls made of? If we're talking standard interior wall frame with sheetrock, anything that will reliably kill a person will penetrate the wall. You could likely punch through such a wall with a fist. I'd suggest going in the opposite direction and picking a large, very stable platform that will fire a small very high velocity projectile of expanding design. This maximizes damage, maximizes the chance that you will hit and minimizes the need for additional rounds fired. In short, if you want to minimize the chance of hitting someone on the other side of the wall get an AR.
Isaac-1
Member
There are no good answers here, if you are forced to stay with a 9mm, and don't want to shoot your neighbors, your best bet is to
A. Hit the bad guy
B. Do it with a pre-fragmented shotshell like bullet
C. Test fire several of these expensive rounds in your gun so you know if they will feed
Or get a better choice of gun for the situation, perhaps a shotgun loaded with bird shot, again not ideal, but best option. Anything that will not over penetrate the walls will also not adequately penetrate the bad guy, so your second best option is make a very big relatively shallow wound, hence shotgun.
A. Hit the bad guy
B. Do it with a pre-fragmented shotshell like bullet
C. Test fire several of these expensive rounds in your gun so you know if they will feed
Or get a better choice of gun for the situation, perhaps a shotgun loaded with bird shot, again not ideal, but best option. Anything that will not over penetrate the walls will also not adequately penetrate the bad guy, so your second best option is make a very big relatively shallow wound, hence shotgun.
Try to watch and plan your field of fire and direct it to the areas where there is the greatest distance between you and the next occupied structure if any. Usually the front to the dwelling and possibly the rear has access points but those directions usually don't have an occupied dwelling directly on the other side of the wall. The greater the distance the lower the chance of another person being struck. Even at that, unless the adjacent dwelling is stacked with occupants like a crowded party, its unlikely you would randomly strike a person.
+P or +P+ 115gr JHP ammo by Winchester, Federal, Remington and Corbon has an excellent reputation for stopping power and 115gr bullets at high velocity generally will penetrate less than heavier bullets through a bad guy, as a through and through shot can be just as bad as a miss that later passes through a wall. This type of ammo is available as commercial loads and as police surplus.
The 124-127gr police and personal defense loads are good ammunition but police loads are generally chosen for their penetration and the ability to go through typical barriers like gyp board walls, automobile doors and still be effective on the other side.
If you are worried about penetration then stay away form the heavier 147gr JHP's as they have the greatest penetration of the 9mm HP's.
+P or +P+ 115gr JHP ammo by Winchester, Federal, Remington and Corbon has an excellent reputation for stopping power and 115gr bullets at high velocity generally will penetrate less than heavier bullets through a bad guy, as a through and through shot can be just as bad as a miss that later passes through a wall. This type of ammo is available as commercial loads and as police surplus.
The 124-127gr police and personal defense loads are good ammunition but police loads are generally chosen for their penetration and the ability to go through typical barriers like gyp board walls, automobile doors and still be effective on the other side.
If you are worried about penetration then stay away form the heavier 147gr JHP's as they have the greatest penetration of the 9mm HP's.
hardworker
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A shotgun loaded with birdshot, like 4s or 6s would be ideal. May not be buckshot but still enough to change anyone's mind.
Loosedhorse
member
You can also think about Glaser or MagSafe rounds. Like birdshot, what you get with less penetration of drywall is less penetration of attackers. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
Not sure if "wall hardening" is an option for you: solid wood furniture up against that wall would be better than nothing, and you could even put some additional wood (or even metal) behind that furniture.
Not sure if "wall hardening" is an option for you: solid wood furniture up against that wall would be better than nothing, and you could even put some additional wood (or even metal) behind that furniture.
Any bullet that will be effective against another human being will easily pass through a wall, especially an interior wall, with more than enough juice left to kill somebody on the other side.
The answer is to practice as much as you can and try to plan for the occasion and if it ever happens, do everything you can to A. not miss and B. position yourself in such a way that the guy you are shooting is not standing in front of your neighbor's wall.
The answer is to practice as much as you can and try to plan for the occasion and if it ever happens, do everything you can to A. not miss and B. position yourself in such a way that the guy you are shooting is not standing in front of your neighbor's wall.
DAP90
Member
Isaac-1 said:
Good advice.
Guaranteeing a hit on the bad guy is not possible. Hitting under stress is not even all that likely so the second two items are probably worth more consideration.
If you can, test the loads on a couple sheets of drywall with some insulation between. I'd bet most of the loads you listed will go through with little trouble.
The Glaser Safety Bullets referenced in another post are the ones with the best chance of not penetrating an interior wall.
A shotgun is probably your best bet where penetration is a concern. Modern handgun bullets are designed to give some penetration.
aren't glasser rounds supposed to not go through walls? i am sure there are quite a few arguments for/against such rounds for home defense, but the bullet you feel comfortable putting into the bad guy is a far sight better than the bullet you might hesitate to shoot because you like your neighbors.
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