Small diameter Sabot projectiles

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Badger Arms

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Are there any on the market? What I was thinking of was a .30 to .50 caliber 'dart' fired with a sabot out of a rifled shotgun. Why? Why not is more of a question. I have seen the sabot rounds out there but none of them seem to get any serious velocity. This question is really about finding a round that is more effective in states that allow only shotguns for hunting.
 
Badger Arms This question is really about finding a round that is more effective in states that allow only shotguns for hunting.

More effective than what?

More effective than:

rifled 1oz. slug @ 1700+ fps generating over 3000 lb/ft of energy.

sabot 325 grain @ 1900+fps generating over 3000 lb/ft of energy.

The question really is... what the hell are you thinking of hunting??

Respecfully,
Cameron
 
Godforbid anyone ever post an idea about something new in the shotguns forum. :rolleyes:

Well, sauvestre makes a fin stabilized sabot slug of about fifty caliber, but the sabot is two piece and doesn't separate cleanly.

finding a proper sabot is the tough part, but i think a mor estreamlined version fo the saivestre with a 4 or six piece sabot would be the bees knees.
 
I was thinking flatter trajectory. Ever watched somebody shoot way low or high because they thought the deer was at 200 yards when it really was a 250 yard shot? Shotgun slugs start out fast, but their BC is only slightly better than a golf ball. With a smaller diameter slug moving somewhat faster, you can shoot flatter and arrive on target with more energy downrange. The goal here is not to hunt cyborgs, I'm thinking of making humane kills on deer and elk.

I'm not talking depleted uranium here, I'm talking a smaller caliber slug. Here are some shots of what's available now that isn't satisfactory for what I'm thinking.

sabot_slug_5.gif
sabot_slug_1.gif
sabot_slug_3.gif

Now this is more like it. Make it a little larger in diameter and shorter. The fins on the rear can be larger in diameter and act as cutting instruments much like a broadhead arrow incapacitates.

Sabot.jpg
 
Badger, the difficulty with a sharp, streamlined design like you illustrated is this: how is the energy of the projectile to be transferred to the target? Such a dart would make a clean, neat, small hole through the animal, and go on its way rejoicing. A typical slug - even a sabot slug - will have a blunt or hollow-point nose, and (except for the Rottweil Brenneke) will expand to at least some extent, thus transferring energy as it slows down. Even if it penetrates all the way through the animal, it will still have transferred 70% to 80% of its energy, whereas the sharp dart will be lucky to transfer 10% to 20%.
 
Isn't that exactly what the Hollow Point Sabot pictured above does?
The 'point' behind the hollow point so to speak.


Regarding using smaller dart like projectiles...

It is interesting that Remington was also trying to figure out how to make slugs more effective :rolleyes: against deer and came up with nearly the opposite conclusion.

The Buckhammer

express_buckhammer_big.jpg


Regards,
Cameron
 
Now, Andrew. Don't mistake a difference of opinion as a quasi-censorship. We're saying, yes, no, maybe, perhaps, or even heck no but everyone gets to have their say.

If the Sauvestre is that French slug that looks kind of like a WW2 aerial bomb, guess what? I emailed them and got no response about a purchasing query. I guess you have to be French.:rolleyes: Well, since no one over here has gotten them and no one here has seen fit to import them, it can't be that great of a projectile. More than likely some ex-maquis is making them in his basement.

The benefit of the shotgun is its large bore. Seems to me the best way to take advantage of that aspect is to make sure that bore is filled from side to side, diameter, circumference, PiR-Square, E=MC2 and all that jazz full to brimming with Sir Hunk-O-Lead when it comes to slugs. Big chunk o' lead has been settling hash for hundreds of years. Why change cooks when the customers are pacified with the cookin'? I guess there's something to be said for orderin' out now and again for something exotic, you know, maybe something hot and spicy. But nothing fills bellies like a good hunk o' lead I always say. Order! Pick-up!
 
in the locations where shotgun hunting is mandatory, a smaller caliber/flatter trajectory slug makes more sense. yes, a brenneke does a fine job out to a hundred yards or so, but there is a market for a slug that can reach out to 200. hell, if something came out like that that was accurate and still had okay terminal effectiveness, i'd buy some.
 
I'd like to see this too but....

.... If somebody did develop a round that duplicated, in scaled down format tank round sabot performance wouldn't it effectivly defeat the purpose of shotgun only areas, particularly, limiting the long range lethality of the projectiles? I imagine if such a round became available and there were some lawmakers in your state that understood weapon performance (not terribly likely I guess. Just make sure the hulls aren't black with pistol grips and we'll okay :( ) they would soon be illegal for hunting as they pose the same dangers as traditional rifle rounds.
 
I mentioned it earlier, but what about the effectiveness of fins on such a projectile. I know that broadhead arrows derive their lethality from the cutting edges on their blades. They are effective far out of proportion ot the product of their energy and velocity.

Maybe we can take the 'dart' in a different direction. I've seen folding blades on broadheads and folding fins on military anti-tank rockets. What about folding fins on a saboted projectile for the purpose of terminal effects on game animals? Further, wouldn't a 'broadhead' slug be more effective than a standard slug with all other things being equal.
 
OK, lets say, for argument's sake a .50cal 500gr bronze point spitzer boat tail could be loaded and stabilized for a 200 yard shot, say @ 1900 fps.

At 200 yards, to make a clean and accurate shot on athe kill zone on a deer, a 9 inch circle... that's what scopes are for. Now why would I want to put a scope on a shotgun when I aleady have a rifle that can do that distance, with considerable less drop and recoil? I'd gather that a "long range" shotgun slug would likely be banned in "shotgun only" areas the same way sabots are illegal or blackpowder hunting.

As far as stabilizing fins, rifling provides all the stability you need for 1000 yard rifle shots. Finned projectiles create spin by having slightly angled fins, that reduces cavitation created by the stress of acceleration. QED You don't need fins UNLESS you have a sabot. Now at shotgun velocities, the rate of twist is pretty slow. By the time your slug hits its target say it fifty yards, its not spinning like a buzz saw, rather drowsily spinning on its own axis once every foot and a half or so. (FIGURES NOT EXACT... just to illustrate) That means at 50 yards, your rifled slug has spun 100 times, and can expect to hold a one and a half inch group.

Now to recreate that accuracy you must now create a projectile, that must stay exactly true to the axis of the bore (which the traditional slug does by being hollow based) while inside a sabot, inside a plastic cartridge.
Now the fins MUST me machined accurately enough to guarantee that spin effect of say 100 times at 50 yards. Well, if you've ever machined lead, you realize that the act of firing the shell will affect the shape of the slug, that's why saboted bullets are made of copper or harder alloys. Now copper isn't that strong and can be bent with your fingers, bronze is pretty brittle and harder stuff makes a bullet that will penetrate some armor btw, and may not be legal where you hunt.

Overall, I think the issue is one of reinventing a wheel, and a wheel that is of limited utility, high cost and hard to manufacture.

As far as being lethal. Rifles and shotguns kill by generating Shock, and penetrating vital organs. Broadhead arrows penetrate deeply but do not create enough energy to create secondary missles from broken bone, bullet fragments or "hydrostatic shock" that bullets do. The purpose of the broad head is to INCREASE the cutting surface exponentially and create a wound that won't close up, and allow an animal to bleed out or be tracked more easily. You'd be suprised how many hunting arrows shoot right through a deer or elk. BTW arrows spin to stay stable, that's what the fletching is for. The effect of a spring loaded wings or blades on a projectile fired from something as primitive as a hotgun.. I doubt you'd get consistant accuracy, again based on the need of the projectile to stay bullet shaped until it hit something, yet be tough enough to not spring open upon firing.

That's my 2 cents.
 
Why not a solid "Football" shaped slug that upsets and turns sideways on impact?

Football shape, and solid not hollow construction, would give it a little better sectional density.
 
Dr.Rob:

I think you've missed the point. Rereading my posts, I'm sure I meant for the 'fins' to be cutting devices only. As for the rate of spin, that is what the rifled barrel is for. Steel seems like the obvious choice to make the projectile out of. The tissue damage is to be casued by the fins with the body of the dart intended to pull the fins through. I'm not sure how thick the fins would have to be to withstand velocities in the range of 2000 fps. Again, I'm don't think the fins will aid in stabilization, they are to cause tissue damage.

Let's not get caught up on the legality of something and automatically conclude these would be banned. Shotgun regulations are, indeed, intended to limit range but not necessarilly to limit lethality. A more lethal projectile is a plus providing cleaner kills and less wounded animals.

Football shaped slugs?

Not entirely sure this is the most aerodynamic of projectiles but it might be able to tumble in tissue well.
 
Spins and Fins don't mix. Ever see a rifled cannon for the APFSDS tank rounds that are the model for this idea? The few that do use these rounds use a bearing or slip ring to isolate the projectile from the spin of the rifling. The fin airfoils keep the projectile flying point first. Spin them at the RPM of typical sabot slugs fired from rifled barrels and and the projectile will never get to the target. I'm not sure how willing current slug users are to trade range/trajectory for reduced terminal effect at that extended range. Given sufficient velocity to achive the longer pointblank rage, you would have a light weight high-velocity projectile that would slip through the target doing minimal tissue damage. Hopefully the dart breaks in half upon deceleration and tears its way out, giving you a blood trail to track.
 
well

Would these help?
Collet Cup Sabot - Sabot only - 12ga, .450" diameter,
300 grain
$15.99 per pack of 25,
$14.00 at 4 packs, $13.15 at 20pks
Collet Cup Sabot - Sabot only - 12ga, .500" diameter,
300 grain
$15.99 per pack of 25,
$14.00 at 4 packs, $13.15 at 20pks
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/a1...3components/Prod_Shot/t4-slug/Slugs/slugs.htm

These are the only 12ga (20's on the same page as well) sabot I can find that will hug a .45 cal projectile. Although it is ostensibly for a 300gr slug, I dont see why you couldn't put something of different weight in there.

Also don't know how much the sabot itself weighs.

I have never tried any of this, but maybe you could use some of barne's spitzer (solids? xlc?) types in .45 or 50 cal and load data for some heavy loads like 1.5 to 2 ounces and get that velocity and trajectory you are after.

Or, maybe someone would custom make some 12ga-.30 caliber sabot for you?

I have been thinking about this one as well.

p.s. in the other directions: how about oe of those 750gr 50 BMG or Barnes Solids 750gr (or 800gr) .510 cal (would need 2 ounce load data I'm sure); or barne's 500 NITRO (.509) 570gr XLC or 50/110 Win (.510) 300gr Original ??? so many ideas...

C-
 
A coupla things....

First, I too believe that more effective slugs are a good idea, but IMO the sabot concept has little more to offer than what's on the market today. While new models keep appearing, there's little they do the older ones do not.

And the old ones work marvelously well when inserted correctly and used within their range limits.

And if they DO make a slug with good 200 yard capability, chances are they will not be allowed in shotgun only areas. Overshooting is overshooting, whether the projectile is sped by a shotgun or a 264 Weatherby.

And, after seeing maybe 30 deer taken with sabots,I note they are often wonderous accurate. Blood trails,though, are longer and skimpier than those of bore sized slugs. This can be overcome with better projectiles, and some of the newest are attempts to do just that. Time will tell if they do.

I do see LE possibilities for a high velocity, penetrating sabot load (Say solid steel core) for shooting through engine blocks,etc, but not much sporting usage.

And you folks do not know just how lucky you are in this respect. Back in the day, most sporting goods stores carried maybe three different 12 gauge slugs at most. Now we've dozens of choices.
 
Just an observation that this thread is being taken in different directions. I think that most would agree an improved shotgun slug is needed but only in the area of range and trajectory. Lethality seems to be a non-issue and I'd agree. The three major types of slugs available now are more than effective in the lethality range.

Dave: You bring up an interesting point. From a smooth-bore shotgun, you can fire a sabot projectile pretty fast. You can do this in much the same manner as the 120mm Tank Gun does. I'm wondering if anybody has done this and what the results are. Armor piercing darts fired at, what, 4,000 fps or maybe faster? Would have a heck of a terminal effect on armor, engine blocks, brick and concrete strutctures, etc. Imagine the effect on Russian designed tanks. How flat would this thing shoot! Now I'm excited.

I suddenly realized that the Moderators might smite me for taking this post in a NON-SHOTGUN direction... uh...

And, er, yes we can put some #12 shot behind the dart for secondary effects.

Whew. Hope that works.


edited for spelling
 
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not navy doc

Its not off topic. Here figure this:

get a 1/2" round steel rod, cut to length desired. (weight is lenght in cm times pi times radius squared times 7.84 grams/cubic cm times 440grams/ounce divided by 28.35)
but it will weigh about 3/4 the weight of a lead plug of same length.

Sharpen to a fine point, making it even lighter in the process.

put into one of the above 50 cal sabot.

should be really, really fast.

Sabot will protect the bore.
C-
 
I think you're doing a good thing by trying something new. As for fins on a slug I don't know what the exact performance would be like but I have a few ideas.

If you add fins and you have a crosswind the dart will probably veer off farther than a slug would because of the fins. The fins help stabilize the darts trajectory but usually the darts oscillate around before coming into a stable mode (missiles do that). But if they are interrupted during flight (i.e. cross wind) they bounce and then oscillate for a bit until the settle down again. Oh yes fins make the dart “roll†as well and if the fins aren’t made correctly one set can produce more drag than the other thus effecting the splash pattern.

I think the main problem with a dart is that the fins make it susceptible to the medium in which it travels in. Oscillation takes away from the kinetic energy of the dart so if it oscillates more on one shot you could lose more K.E. and end up short of the target. Also manufacturing these things so that it produces equal drag/lift what not on each set would be a interesting challenge. You’re loads would have to be pretty darn consistent since you “designed†the fins for a certain “axial force†or the boom that made it go woosh.
All in all I think adding fins may insert an uncertainty into the splash pattern (i.e. accuracy) of your slug-dart.

Not saying that the dart-slug was a bad idea but I think there could be more too it than designing a regular slug. Heck, just design a slug with a better ballistic coefficient?? better shape, better aerodynamics.
 
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I imagine a variation of the "grid fins " idea would be perfect for this application. They could be made of polymer for ease of manufacture and to improve consistency, perhaps affixed the round by being set against a shoulder milled or cast into the projecticle. They also have minimal area along the transverse axis to minimize wind effect. Sorry that page isn't directely about grid fins, but it has pictures.
 
Hmm, what's that Winchester superslug, 1900 FPS? Let's bypass steel and go to a steel jacketed tungsten or depleted Uranium projectile. Or use a case hardened steel splinter like the old black tip 30-06 AP, only say .50 caliber as was mentioned OR .375 for better sectional density. Pressures will have to be kept low but IMO 2700 FPS to match the 375 H&H should be realistic.

No legitimate sporting purpose, but outstanding for penetrating light armor, fortifications or those pesky engine blocks. And usable in a decent 12 gauge repeater...
 
Badger Arms

We're talking about extending the range of a slug right? For that 200 yrd shot? Just checking to make sure because thats what I read on your original post.
 
Nip: Initially, yes, but by an extension of the concept, other applicaitons have come to light. I think it's healthy to explore the concept no matter what the applications. Currently, I think we are discussing the best ways to stabilize said projectile which is between .30 and .50 caliber and considerably longer and more slender than current projectiles.

I feel that a 'dart' on the order of 1.75" to 2.25" in length would fit the bill well in a shotshell. The problems currently identified with that projectile are stability, accuracy, and lethality. These problems are considerably less important if we are talking minute-of-tank or minute-of-bunker accuracy rather than kill zones on deer. Also, a dart that is less than .50 caliber is kosher for anti-personnel applications by Military and Law Enforcement agencies. Currently, US Military agencies see the shotgun as primarilly a door breeching tool and little more. The same tool can also give an infantryman a means to take on a Main Battle tank in theory.

I disagree with Depleated Uranium as there is too great a political battle to be fought on that subject. Perhaps Tungsten Carbide with a cast aluminum fin assembly. I don't think Plastic can take the pounding that a 3,000 or 4,000 fps projectile can dish out.
 
hand-held AT weapon, huh?

Badger, you too optimistic about taking MBT with the shotgun-fired sabot. They don't make the tank smoothbores of about 5" for nothing.

the 15mm Austrian Steyr IWS-2000 Anti-materiel rifle fires 308gr tungsten flechette at 4750 fps. Yet it is capable to dealing with only 40mm (less than 2") of RHA at 1000 meters. Current MBTs have armour of much more than 1' (usually in equivalent of 500+mm), so even an point blank this gun will fail at MBT, unless fired straight from the top at the engine compartment cover.

yet, this gun 5-6 times heavier than any typical shotgun (~39 lbs) and have complicated recoil-dampening systems. Ammo is also much, much larger than any shotgun shell (see it compared to .308win below)

steyr_amm.jpg


some detals are here: Steyr IWS-2000

the hunting arrow-shaped saboted shotgun slugs were developed in Russia in late 1960s (i talked with one of the designers lately by phone), but were never put into production. i can find some details if you interested.
 
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