Small ring Mauser?
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mr.trooper
Member
It refers to the older style action seen on the original 7mm guns, and on the Swedish 6.5mm guns. It is an earlier 'cock on closing' design, rather than the more familiar 'cock on opening' designs of the WWII period 8mm models.
Small ring Mausers are not quite as strong as the later large rings, and will not handle some of the higher pressure rounds, but otherwise are fine guns.
Be warned: sporterized Mausers are not worth much. Even an antique sport conversion done by a professional gun smith should not cost more than about $350-400 at most... The average home job with an aftermarket scope mount and a drop-in stock is basically worthless for anything beyond a truck gun or a beater - $200 is the ceiling of what such a gun is worth.
Small ring Mausers are not quite as strong as the later large rings, and will not handle some of the higher pressure rounds, but otherwise are fine guns.
Be warned: sporterized Mausers are not worth much. Even an antique sport conversion done by a professional gun smith should not cost more than about $350-400 at most... The average home job with an aftermarket scope mount and a drop-in stock is basically worthless for anything beyond a truck gun or a beater - $200 is the ceiling of what such a gun is worth.
Could be a Spanish FR7 or FR8, there have been a lot of them on the market recently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FR8
snake284
Member
Mr. Trooper that is not entirely true. I have had 98s sporterized but haven't ever sold one. However, I know people that have had 98s sporterized by reputable gun smiths that have sold them for good money. Also, your vision of a sporter Mauser may be clouded because you cannot do a quality job for $300-$500. No Way. Just fitting a new barrel will cost that much. Then having the bolt bent, drilling and tapping the receiver for scope mounts, a sporter trigger and safety, and bluing is going to run it up to almost a thousand. They aren't cheap. But you can't buy a finer rifle for what you will pay to build one. If you get a good clean action and put a decent barrel on it, you will have a shooter that feels like a real custom rifle, which it will be.
I am having a Yugo 24/47 rebarreled to .257 Roberts Acley Improved. My gun smith is bending the bolt and drilling and tapping it for scope bases, adding a Timney sporter trigger and a Winchester Model 70 3 position swing safety, and screwing on a Shilen 26 inch Stainless medium sporter barrel, and installing a Leupold Side Focus 4.5-14x56mm VX-3L scope with 30mm tube. I'll have almost $2,000 in this build. It is my most expensive build to date. But it's something I always wanted and wanted a 98 Mauser action, which a Yugo is actually. The Yugo is about 1/4th inch shorter than a k98 or similar Mauser, making it ideal for the 57mm case of which the .257 Roberts is built upon and also which the 7mmx57 is (it's actually the parent cartridge) and also the 8x57. Also, the 6mm Remington is built on this case. Anyway, this is something I have planned for and been waiting for the right opportunity.
So don't sell the Mauser action short. It may cost a little more, but it builds an excellent rifle of which if it's done right will sell for more money.
Edited to Add: However I would not advise building a rifle on a small ring action because it is not as strong as a 98 style. Yugos, K98s, and several more are large ring 98 actions and it would be adviseable to build a rifle on one of those. As stated, the small ring isn't strong enough for modern high pressure cartridges such as the .308 Win.
I am having a Yugo 24/47 rebarreled to .257 Roberts Acley Improved. My gun smith is bending the bolt and drilling and tapping it for scope bases, adding a Timney sporter trigger and a Winchester Model 70 3 position swing safety, and screwing on a Shilen 26 inch Stainless medium sporter barrel, and installing a Leupold Side Focus 4.5-14x56mm VX-3L scope with 30mm tube. I'll have almost $2,000 in this build. It is my most expensive build to date. But it's something I always wanted and wanted a 98 Mauser action, which a Yugo is actually. The Yugo is about 1/4th inch shorter than a k98 or similar Mauser, making it ideal for the 57mm case of which the .257 Roberts is built upon and also which the 7mmx57 is (it's actually the parent cartridge) and also the 8x57. Also, the 6mm Remington is built on this case. Anyway, this is something I have planned for and been waiting for the right opportunity.
So don't sell the Mauser action short. It may cost a little more, but it builds an excellent rifle of which if it's done right will sell for more money.
Edited to Add: However I would not advise building a rifle on a small ring action because it is not as strong as a 98 style. Yugos, K98s, and several more are large ring 98 actions and it would be adviseable to build a rifle on one of those. As stated, the small ring isn't strong enough for modern high pressure cartridges such as the .308 Win.
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Float Pilot
Member
A few years back, Kimber flooded the market with sporterized Swede Mausers that were re-barreled to 308.
Is it one of those to which you are referring?
Is it one of those to which you are referring?
35 Whelen
Member
A small ring Mauser usually refers to the Mexican Mausers that had a smaller diameter front receiver ring, but still maintained the model '98 design. If it is of this variety, then it is likely a Mexican Mauser Model 1910 (I own one of these chambere in 257 Ack. Imp.), 1912, or 1936.
It is very easy to tell. Just operate the bolt. If it is cock on closing, then it's probably a Mauser 1916 (I have one of these as well) though it could be a '95 or '96. If it is cock on opening then it is one of the aforementioned Mexican Mausers of the '98 design.
Ignore the old hens who tell you it'll blow all ten toes off if you shoot it with modern ammunition. But, if you are leery of it, let me know where it is as I may very well be interested in it.
Regards,
35W
It is very easy to tell. Just operate the bolt. If it is cock on closing, then it's probably a Mauser 1916 (I have one of these as well) though it could be a '95 or '96. If it is cock on opening then it is one of the aforementioned Mexican Mausers of the '98 design.
Ignore the old hens who tell you it'll blow all ten toes off if you shoot it with modern ammunition. But, if you are leery of it, let me know where it is as I may very well be interested in it.
Regards,
35W
jimmyraythomason
Member
While I agree with this to a point (Kaboom isn't likely) bolt setback is a definite possibility and that can lead to unsafe headspacing. "Small ring" includes the Mauser models 1893,1894,1895 and 1896 (including the Swedes). There are also commercial small ring 98 Mausers. I have built many sporters on large ring 98 Mauser actions and prefer them over the small rings but I do have a couple of Loewe made 1894 receivers that I may take the plunge on at some future day. Rest assured though THEY will be chambered in some pipsqueak that I will be safe shooting!
98 Mausers are large ring. If there is a 98 small ring Mauser out there, I would like to see a photo of it. I have a 95 Mauser rebarreled to 308 in the 60s by a friend of mine who was the most talented gunsmith I ever knew that was given to me. I finished up the rifle and it has been a great shooter since then. The reason people blow up small ring Mausers is they rebuild them to more cartridge than the actiion can handle and load the ammo as hot as they can. Remember, reload for accuracy, not velocity......chris3
Liberty1776
Member
There seems to be some confusion here between the small-ring and large-ring '98 Mauser. Pre-98 small rings are just that; the '93, '94, '95, and '96 are the common model variations. They are similar and all cock on closing. The true small-ring '98 Mauser, was made in Erfurt, and generally is considered to have a run from 1918 - 1936 or so, but I could be off on those years. After WWI, all the Erfurt Mausers were model 98s, and they came in both small and large ring.
Those small ring Model 98's were always deemed VERY desireable as the basis for a lightweight stalking/sporting rifle, due to having all the strength/safety of the gold-standard large ring Mauser 98 with a nice weight savings in both action and barrel. I have a lovely one in my basement shop in .308 that I am turning into a nice full-stock stalking rifle.
A Mauser can easily be verified as being either a large ring (1.4" front ring) or a small ring (1.3" front ring) by looking at the left receiver wall - if the left wall is flush with the front ring it's a small ring. If the small ring additionally cocks-on-opening, it's a Model 98 small ring (and not an earlier/weaker Model 93/94/95 cock-on-closing small ring).
Hope this helps...
Those small ring Model 98's were always deemed VERY desireable as the basis for a lightweight stalking/sporting rifle, due to having all the strength/safety of the gold-standard large ring Mauser 98 with a nice weight savings in both action and barrel. I have a lovely one in my basement shop in .308 that I am turning into a nice full-stock stalking rifle.
A Mauser can easily be verified as being either a large ring (1.4" front ring) or a small ring (1.3" front ring) by looking at the left receiver wall - if the left wall is flush with the front ring it's a small ring. If the small ring additionally cocks-on-opening, it's a Model 98 small ring (and not an earlier/weaker Model 93/94/95 cock-on-closing small ring).
Hope this helps...
exbiologist
Member
"98 Mausers are large ring. If there is a 98 small ring Mauser out there, I would like to see a photo of it"
Pick up a copy of Mauser Millitary Rifles of the World. Lots of photos in there for you
Pick up a copy of Mauser Millitary Rifles of the World. Lots of photos in there for you
NCsmitty
Member
Every few weeks this topic comes up and people argue back and forth on the use of 308 chambered pre'98 small ring Mausers.
The bottom line is that the pre'98 Mausers were not designed to shoot 55,000+ PSI cartridges. Even the M96 Swede Mausers with their seemingly superior metallurgy are not designed for those level of cartridges.
Yet people shoot these old converted rifles all the time, and that's a testament to the margin of safety that the Mauser brothers built into the design.
Shooting original cartridges in the small rings is fine, but I know that I would not put my face next to one shooting factory 308 ammo loaded to 60,000 psi, not while M98 style rifles are still in relative abundance.
NCsmitty
The bottom line is that the pre'98 Mausers were not designed to shoot 55,000+ PSI cartridges. Even the M96 Swede Mausers with their seemingly superior metallurgy are not designed for those level of cartridges.
Yet people shoot these old converted rifles all the time, and that's a testament to the margin of safety that the Mauser brothers built into the design.
Shooting original cartridges in the small rings is fine, but I know that I would not put my face next to one shooting factory 308 ammo loaded to 60,000 psi, not while M98 style rifles are still in relative abundance.
NCsmitty
BrocLuno
Member
Offered price sounds OK, but what are you going to do with it? Shoot it once in while? Shoot it with reduced loads? Shoot it with a new barrel and chamber for a smaller cartridge? Maybe set the barrel back and rechamber for 7.62x39?
That's a nice looking gun and if the rest is done that nicely, I'd buy it as a toy
That's a nice looking gun and if the rest is done that nicely, I'd buy it as a toy
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WardenWolf
member
That's a cock-on-opening Mauser. One way to tell is the location of the safety switch. A cock-on-close Mauser has the safety at the very rear of the bolt, if it has a protruding safety at all (some are like the Japanese Arisaka, with just a round piece that you push in and twist. A cock-on-open Mauser has the safety switch a bit forwards, allowing a cylindrical area to protrude behind it.
I just bought a Turkish Mauser, so I did my research and paid attention to what I was getting. I got a later model that's cock-on-open. These are all large-ring Mausers identical in function to the German K98. I also have an Arisaka 99, and it's an example of the cock-on-close design.
I just bought a Turkish Mauser, so I did my research and paid attention to what I was getting. I got a later model that's cock-on-open. These are all large-ring Mausers identical in function to the German K98. I also have an Arisaka 99, and it's an example of the cock-on-close design.
snake284
Member
Don't ask me to prove it, but I know there are some small ring Mausers that are actually 98s. I have heard one of my friends who is a damn good Mauser mechanic talk about it. I'm not sure if it's a Turk or Persian, I'm not sure. But what I'm talking about is all 98 except the receiver ring and it's strong enouh for higher pressure cartridges. But these are not what is normally referred to as a small ring Mauser. As was said, the older Mauser models are what they are referring to, such as the 93, 95, and 96s. You can tell these because they don't have the third spare lug back by the bolt handle, they don't have all the gas vents down the bolt, and they don't have the big claw extractor. What I understand is that the small ring that is a 98 has all these features which make it strong. The 98 is the grand papa of strong Mausers. And the Yugo's are in the 98 family, though shorter by a quarter inch.
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35 Whelen
Member
I know this is generally true and accepted with most '91, '93, '94 and '95 actions. But I question whether this is the case with the '96. The reason I question it is due Norma's loads factory loads.
I've been loading for a '98 Mauser chambered is 6.5x55 for nigh on 20 years. As such, I can and do load ammo above the 45,000 CUP threshold by using common methods of pressure reading and judicious use of a chronograph. Given my experience loading for and chronographing loads for my rifle, I can 100% assure most of Norma's loads far exceed the 45-46,000 CUP threshold.
The loading data at their website provides loads that run bullets at the following speeds:
120 gr. right at 3000 fps
130 gr. right at 2900 fps
140 gr. at 2700 fps
156 gr. at 2600 fps
I could be wrong, but I don't think there's anyway they acquire those velocities with 45,000 CUP loads. I also recently read (and how I wish I'd have saved the link) that most of the rifles they use for load testing 6.5's are original '96 Mausers.
Regards,
35W
Mr_Pale_Horse
Member
It is not the peak pressure under the curve, but rather the total area. Final velocity will be proportional to the total area under the pressure curve. By using multi burn rate propellant blends, you can sustain the pressure curve. This is what Hornady is doing in their Superformance line.
frankenstein406
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Hmm you must live near me. Let me know if you get it! Was curious about it to lol.
Of Small Ring 98s?
Not trying to be a jerk, but could you point me in the right direction to verify this?
In all my years of doing research I have heard people talk about Small Ring 98 but never seen an example of one. Again I am not trying to start a fight, just further my education.
exbiologist
Member
I've got two references handy.
Page 116 in De Haas: "The "small ring" Mauser actions have a receiver ring diameter of about 1.300". A lot of the early M98 carbines, like the 98a were based on the small ring action. The most notable later carbine using this action was the lightweight Czech 33/40."
Page 117: The short Mexican M98 action was once the known of the short actions. It is 8.50" in overall length. These Mexican actions, either small or large ring type, are scarce."
First picture I found while thumbing through Ball was page 281, Peruvian Vz32 with small ring. Page 249, a small ring Mexican, page 254 small ring Mexican short action. Also page 254, FN built Moroccan action....
Page 116 in De Haas: "The "small ring" Mauser actions have a receiver ring diameter of about 1.300". A lot of the early M98 carbines, like the 98a were based on the small ring action. The most notable later carbine using this action was the lightweight Czech 33/40."
Page 117: The short Mexican M98 action was once the known of the short actions. It is 8.50" in overall length. These Mexican actions, either small or large ring type, are scarce."
First picture I found while thumbing through Ball was page 281, Peruvian Vz32 with small ring. Page 249, a small ring Mexican, page 254 small ring Mexican short action. Also page 254, FN built Moroccan action....
Very interesting, thank you.
Mr_Pale_Horse
Member
snake284
Member
35 Whelen, as somebody told me, earlier model Ruger 77s (Some call them MK Is, the ones with the tang safety) are actually more like a 96 with the big claw extractor. However, of course being a more modern rifle the steel in them is much better. Could it be that some later made 96s are made from better steel? and can handle higher pressure? Because I too have heard of Norma's loading for them is much higher pressure than a lot of older Mauser designs.
snake284
Member
Gus McCrea, then you and I are in the same boat, because I have never with my own eyes seen one either. It's what a gentleman whom I know and trust told me. I had a brief moment of stagger when he said that myself. But I don't doubt much this guy says. That's why I stated as such. However, Mr. Pale Horse has come to our rescue. However, from what my friend says, there are more than one that fit this bill and I'm thinking they are either Turkish or Persian Mausers.
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