"Smart Gun" Metrics

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And YOU do not seem to understand that "voluntary" is not in the equation for many members of this board. If it were a scenario of 100 percent voluntary adoption or rejection, I'd be all for advancing technology in any field, including firearms. But this is not the case.

Adoption will be mandatory for some people as soon as the technology becomes viable. You will have forced adoption upon people who did not want, did not need and you seek, in your opening post, to exclude from the discussion. Sounds like politics.

And to further drive some logic into this discussion, the entire notion of "smart" technology ignores the real issues surrounding crime, violence and weapons of any type. A political expedient for throwing human nature under the rug and trying to live in a Utopia.
 
Why don't we start by not calling them 'smart guns' --which is both highly politicized and almost criminally misleading jargon-- and call them electronic safety mechanisms? That's what you're talking about, right? Ways we can use electro-mechanical machines to interrupt or disable the firing sequence when certain conditions are met?

As far as the ban-state laws, I dare them to try outlawing all but this one type of weapon after Heller. Even with Scalia gone, there isn't enough ink in the world to undo the ruling, and the court risks utter irrelevance (revolution soon to follow) if they refuse to uphold even their own words out of political convenience.

"The discussions ARE going to be had whether or not the gun community likes it or not."
Let them be had. They won't be 'discussions' in any meaning of the word, and neither side will listen to the other's desires, and the anti-gun side will most certainly refuse to learn anything at all about the topic at hand before drafting their proposals in any case. We had a discussion about UBC's after Newtown; I'll leave it at that. If the anti's truly want to improve the practical safety of firearms, I suggest they offer a better product; gun owners are safety-conscious often to the point of obsession --they will snap this up like candy (same as how S&W Lemon Squeezer revolvers were snapped up by being designed to be slightly more difficult for a child to cock/fire)

Now, if the goal is actually to screw over gun owners for the umpteenth time out of some misplaced aggression? By all means draft some daft document packed full of legal-sounding 'words' lacking any meaning and even less impact on the problems they promise to fix for all our benefit. In neither case is discussion necessary or even the proper means of resolution.

TCB
 
Many in the firearms world feel that you should be able to shoot 200 rounds of your self-defense ammunition without any problems prior to carrying the firearm. That is a failure rate of <0.5% So for reliability a failure rate of <0.5% would be required.
I think you are misconstruing that recommendation. I have always taken that as a preliminary number only; shoot 200 to catch any obvious manufacturing defects and then put the gun on probation, and shoot a whole lot more practice ammo through it to catch any lower-rate failures. It does not mean that a MRBF of only 200 rounds, or a failure rate as staggeringly high as 0.5%, would be anywhere close to acceptable; it's just a recognition of the fact that 200 rounds of carry ammo can start to approach the cost of the gun itself. If your car's brakes could be expected to completely fail in a panic stop with a 1/200 probability, you'd get that car serviced stat, and probably wouldn't consider it safe to drive until that problem was fixed.

In my gun safe, a gun with a demonstrated overall system reliability of at least .9995, with any failure modes immediately addressable by a tap-rack-bang, is on probation; if it has a gun-related failure even once in 2000 times with quality ammunition, I'll sell it or consign it to range-toy-only status, and if it was an obviously ammo-related failure (e.g. no priming in the primer cup, out-of-spec case), I'd consign that ammo to practice only. Unfortunately, failure rates for electronically-locked guns are vastly higher than that currently, and the failure modes are often catastrophic (i.e. total loss of system functionality). Also consider that the electronics reliability has to be higher than .9995 in order not to bring the overall system reliability down to .9995.

And yet they are one of the most trusted sighting systems despite possessing all the potential flaws of a smart weapon. It simply hasn't been an issue, which is my point. But we still have folks who claim electronics do not belong in a gun under any circumstance because they will fail --.gov killswitch or no.
There are a couple of key reasons why Aimpoints are trusted more than internal electronic locks. First, failure mode; if an Aimpoint fails, the rifle is still instantly and absolutely usable; one of the selling points of the Aimpoint is that you can cowitness your backup sights through it, and just lower your head a little to shoot as if you weren't using an Aimpoint. Second, Aimpoints have a demonstrated a MRBF in the millions of rounds, not the low hundreds.

Look at the troubles Eotech is currently having, even with an MRBF of tends of thousands and benign failure modes, or the probability-of-failure thresholds used in automotive recall or aviation-safety reliability criteria. People simply do not tolerate much likelihood of failure in safety-critical devices.

I also forgot to add the absolutely most critical of all criteria for electronic handgun design;

Must not rely on continual updates, contracts, upgrades, or replacement for continued function at a rate significantly (predictably) higher than the mechanical parts. No "planned-obsolescence" will be tolerated. Google/Apple/Msoft need not apply. Upgrades to add function are perfectly acceptable and expected, but if needed for basic function, constitute a severe liability.
I'd add that the system must not be passively or remotely updatable. If OTA updates can be pushed to the gun under any circumstances, then forget it. And it must not be capable of remote disabling by any means, legal or illegal, that would not disable a conventional firearm. I also expect it to last for decades, or be user-convertible to a non-locked firearm if not.

Someone who has conventional firearms for defensive use, and has a "smart gun" only for the "cool range toy" factor, may not have the same criteria. But most of them seem to be aimed at the defensive market, and that is a much higher bar.

gun owners are safety-conscious often to the point of obsession --they will snap this up like candy (same as how S&W Lemon Squeezer revolvers were snapped up by being designed to be slightly more difficult for a child to cock/fire)
Reliability is equally important (or more, since you can create superior safety by exterior means, e.g. a safe and a holster. The internal electronic internal lock mostly provides incremental benefit to those not storing guns in safes or carrying them on the person, at the (current) cost of vastly decreased system reliability.
 
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Couple things
1) I see no issues with manufacturers producing smart guns, this may bring more firearm owners into the market that are afraid of the scary non-smart guns. -> smart gun owners may eventually move into the realm of stupid guns.

2) There are people who dislike pistols with manual safeties, but there are folks who will only purchase a firearm with a manual safety. Is the government making firearms illegal that don't have a manual safety??

3) Smart guns should have an integral back-up battery that is part of the magazine. I agree that we should not have to wear anything special in order to activate the firearm, but what can we trust to use that will work flawlessly.


Thanks,,,
 
"2) There are people who dislike pistols with manual safeties, but there are folks who will only purchase a firearm with a manual safety. Is the government making firearms illegal that don't have a manual safety??"
Amazingly, in light of all the other restrictions we all have to put up with, there actually aren't any federal laws regulating the safety mechanisms of firearms.

Actually, the only real direction on the matter is from the ATF, that they will prosecute anyone who tries to incorporate a device which keeps the trigger group from releasing the hammer until the action is safely into battery; the safety sear. Yup, guns are made demonstrably less safe to satisfy the ATF's machinegun convertibility requirements under the NFA. As I said, the consequences of people writing laws about a technical subject they know nothing about.

The lack of this federal direction in the midst of a solid century of encroachment is as glaring as it is obvious; there is literally no legal justification for them to weigh in on the matter. Only the lamest of rational-basis arguments can support the idea of the feds injecting specific design decisions into manufactured goods to meet their policy goals. That might work on normal consumer goods like automobiles or cell phones, but not firearms.

Which I why, frankly, I dare NJ to try enforcing its moronic law; reap what they sowed, and try to ban the sale of all handguns in this climate. Do it. See how fast the gavel swings. Don't blink. At that point, there would clear precedent against mandatory 'smart gun' laws, and we'd technically be in a better position than we are now.

TCB
 
Wishful thinking. The laws would stand under the argument that any new approved sales would incorporate existing technology. Nothing preventing manufacture of the items, nothing preventing purchase of the items. It would be no different than California's current list of "approved" firearms.
 
The only thing I would "support" is "shall not be infringed". Once they go past that they are ignoring the meaning of the Amendment.
 
One issue that keeps popping up to me should be a more general question: What should the design be for when the power source or electronics fails -- is the gun usable or dead?

A similar design question would be how easy is it to defeat -- can you easily remove the "smart" disabling system and the gun us usable, or should it be nearly impossible to remove/replace?
 
There are entire states (California and New Jersey come to mind) and several localities that already have laws on the books stating when the first "smart gun" becomes commercially viable, no other firearms will be permitted for sale.

Being that I am in California, the above is scaring me. Can you please provide a link to the California law?
 
Can't find the story. California didn't have such a law previously and it's recent. 2015, I believe.

Found it. SB293. When technology is available, 18 months later all firearms available for sale must be compliant.

ETA: Looked online and it's been amended a bit. It now requires two "Owner Authorized" (smart guns) on the Ca. approved list to trigger the two year window (was 18 months) at the end of which no handgun may be added to the Ca. approved list which are not smart guns. So it did get amended a little bit in your favor, but the result will be the same. When the technology becomes available, you'll be thrown under the bus and forced to adopt it.
 
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We're accepting the definition of a "smart gun" as forced on us by anti gunners. That's like saying you can only accept the definition of a smart phone from Apple.

We are concentrating on the single minded application that only the owner can shoot it thru some identification method.

Smart phones do a lot more than dial a call - it's time to open up the definition - which also distorts the anti gunners agenda and forces them to address other things, too.

I'd like an interactive smart gun with optic that turns the aiming point another color when the infra red image indicates a live target - and if you already have the trigger depressed fires the gun instantaneously. For NFA purposes you would have to cycle the trigger again, but full auto use means it would fire every time a good sight picture center of mass appeared with much less reaction time.

I expect hit probability to go up exponentially. If the live target is center of mass, the gun automatically goes off. One trigger pull. Release and reset.

I'm speculating but will go out on a limb, tell me DOD isn't already playing with it.

Put that working concept out to the press as a new potential firearm for sale to the public and see how quick "smart gun" lasts as an anti gun proposal. I believe they will fall all over themselves trying to rename both and demonize the latter.

Smart guns are what WE make of them and progress will continue on this because the application is so obvious, the tech is already available, and the demand will be extremely high.

My smart gun is certainly better than their's. And I get dibs on the 3Gun concession of target emitters, cause they are going to shoot them up like mad. They will likely not even allow them, human skill and all that being the chest thumping priority of male social ranking.

Tell me a soldier on Pork Chop Hill would pass on that.

Smart guns are our domain, not theirs, with red dots on pistols and knock sensors counting the rounds fired, we are already seeing smart guns in the near future. Just maybe not the way they intend. And yes, the Army would be all over a knock sensor counting rounds in the M4 so preventive replacement of extractors, bolts, and cam pins can be accurately scheduled. I sure would be better than the " we fix it when we find it broken" maintenance they are forced into now.

Instead of accepting the limited anti gun measure of only shooting when in the hands of the owner, we need to own the concept of what is "smart" by adopting the electronics to help us do a better job. It's not necessarily a $3000 scope on a rifle. "Smart" is the ballistics app on your sniper rifle at the range.

We need to get smarter about what we call "smart," because it will be accurate and yet distort the anti gun message.

What, you don't want the Army to have smart guns that count rounds and reduce maintenance costs for the taxpayer? <---- See how easy that was?
 
Can't find the story. California didn't have such a law previously and it's recent. 2015, I believe.

Found it. SB293. When technology is available, 18 months later all firearms available for sale must be compliant.

ETA: Looked online and it's been amended a bit. It now requires two "Owner Authorized" (smart guns) on the Ca. approved list to trigger the two year window (was 18 months) at the end of which no handgun may be added to the Ca. approved list which are not smart guns. So it did get amended a little bit in your favor, but the result will be the same. When the technology becomes available, you'll be thrown under the bus and forced to adopt it.
Thanks. :)

According to http://crpa.org/sb-293/:
Status: 8/30/2013-Failed Deadline pursuant to Rule 61(a)(11). (Last location was Appropriations Suspense File on 8/14/2013)

I think (hope hope hope) this means it's dead for now?
 
I do agree that we probably need to come to grips with the fact that smart technology is here. We can either fight anti-gunners kicking and screaming and let them set the parameters of how it is implemented or make it work so that the technology is driven forward.

I like Tirod's idea of shifting the nomenclature. Smart doesn't just mean electronically locked. DARPA is already messing around with guns the fire around corners and putting sophisticated stabilizing computers on robots that make them more accurate from 100+ yards than any man. An operator from several miles away can zoom in and pull a trigger on his joystick. Every single round can be put pretty much through the same bullet hole in the target.

Making firearms more technologically sophisticated simply IS the way things will go in the future.

I understand the issues many see with having a weapon that is able to be knocked out with an EMP, but think about how much of our military runs on the same kinds of things. Our squad tactics aren't just grunts and jarheads storming doors with rifles. Drones, roving robots, NVG, HUD built into helmets, etc. I've read about prototype smart armor that not only monitors the soldier's vitals but can actually constrict and help seal a puncture wound. All of this stuff by simply having computers in them make them "weaker" than more traditional military hardware. The benefits must outweigh the costs according to someone up the chain.

Now, let me just say, I have no need for a smart gun. I like my lowtech ones just fine. However, lets just say for the sake of argument that the government doesn't require smart technology. Let's say for instance that it simply becomes an option as an added measure of security to the buying public who wants it. Yea capitalism, right?

Look how plugged in we are. Our smart technology allows us have in our hands what could only be gained from massive libraries or crunched out on clunky desktop computers.

Let's just say that a firearm is offered with a dongle that CAN control its fire. Yes, I know some say that's a no-go, but I'm just spitballing here. Remember, this technology is not required by law. The person purchasing it would be choosing to adopt this technology in spite of it not being as "foolproof" as a traditional gun.

This particular gun comes with a waterproof bracelet that magnetically unlocks the striker from a partial cock so that it will complete its action when the trigger is pulled. Let's say that the band must be within 4" of the gun for it to work.

Here's where it gets interesting. This band is not just a key to the gun. It's also a fitness tracker, digital watch, and syncs to your phone and buzzes when you get a text. It holds a charge for 7 days and can be fully recharged in the time it takes for you to shower, dress, and eat a bowl of oatmeal. They already have these things (sans the gun lock, of course). They're called Fitbits and the company making them is raking in billions because they are offering an affordable piece of tech that goes with people every single day.

Maybe the tech that locks the gun is voluntary? A phone app that slides the gun on or off might be on your home screen. Maybe there is an internal battery that will cause the locking mechanism that causes the whole system to fail if it isn't synced for 7 days (or what ever time period).

I guess what I see the "smart" gun in this scenario as less of a nanny-state safety thing and more of an adopted risk/reward for someone who wants to carry but wants added safety features. A gun that can voluntarily be locked from curious little fingers or not turned against you if it is holster-snatched by an assailant, and all it requires is that you make peace with Murphy and his Law and wear a piece of fashion tech that doesn't inconvenience you in pretty much any way.

Once again, I'm fine with my old fashion point and click interface guns. I don't really see the need for such gizmos in my life, but I think we as gun owners at least need to look at this academically lest we let people who want to infringe upon our rights move the chains on us. Instead of crying hogwash and folding our arms over, let's at least look at some alternatives on how the technology could benefit gunowners as a whole.
 
This particular gun comes with a waterproof bracelet that magnetically unlocks the striker from a partial cock so that it will complete its action when the trigger is pulled. Let's say that the band must be within 4" of the gun for it to work.

Here's where it gets interesting. This band is not just a key to the gun. It's also a fitness tracker, digital watch, and syncs to your phone and buzzes when you get a text. It holds a charge for 7 days and can be fully recharged in the time it takes for you to shower, dress, and eat a bowl of oatmeal. They already have these things (sans the gun lock, of course). They're called Fitbits and the company making them is raking in billions because they are offering an affordable piece of tech that goes with people every single day.
If the gun has to be within 4" of the bracelet to fire, which hand do you wear the bracelet on? What happens if you have to fire with only the hand it's not on? Hello?

As for depending on anything computerized in a life-or-death situation, as a former systems analyst I'm here to say thanks but no thanks, just like my cousin the medical device programmer who is diabetic and becomes apopleptic at any suggestion of using an insulin pump.
 
Nope. The revisions I mentioned were in 2015 as a condition of passage of a larger firearm related bill.
OK, I went googling.

The new law was something else, rather than requiring smart technology to get on the DOJ list they wanted to fund "studies". The number was SB 678 and it also failed. Here is the description, from http://smartgunlaws.org/keeping-california-on-the-leading-edge-of-smart-gun-laws/, an anti site that looks like it would be good to keep an eye on:
SB 678 (Hill): User-Authorized Firearms Study – User-authorized firearms, also known as “personalized firearms” or “smart guns,” incorporate common sense, cutting-edge technologies, like the fingerprint recognition software now widely available on smart phones, to prevent firearm use by unauthorized users. These firearms are designed to prevent shootings, both intentional and unintentional, by children, thieves, and other unauthorized users, including criminals who may attempt to wrestle guns away from police officers during the course of an arrest.
SB 678 would have directed the California Department of Justice (DOJ) to survey the current state of the user-authorized firearm industry, to assess market conditions and barriers to the market for user-authorized firearms in California, to investigate methods to increase the availability and use of user-authorized firearms in California, and to make recommendations to the Legislature proposing manufacturer performance and reliability standards and testing procedures for user-authorized firearms. The bill would also have directed DOJ to convene a working group in 2016, including representatives from a broad range of interested groups, to provide recommendations to guide DOJ’s review process, and instruct DOJ to report its findings and recommendations to the Legislature by January 1, 2017.
Status: The bill failed to pass the Senate Appropriations Committee on May 28.
Law Center Position: Support

At the California Legislative Information site, http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160SB678, there is a bill that retains the same identifying number (SB-678) but no longer has anything to do with firearms, all the firearms-related text has been struck out.
 
In the old 'Cyberpunk' genre of Science Fiction stories a 'Smart Gun' was one that interfaced with the users cybernetic parts to project a sighting crosshair in the users field of vision to aid in aiming.
 
If the gun has to be within 4" of the bracelet to fire, which hand do you wear the bracelet on? What happens if you have to fire with only the hand it's not on? Hello?

As for depending on anything computerized in a life-or-death situation, as a former systems analyst I'm here to say thanks but no thanks, just like my cousin the medical device programmer who is diabetic and becomes apopleptic at any suggestion of using an insulin pump.

I'm not pitching this to Shark Tank. 4" was literally the first distance that came to mind. Far enough that if the bracelet slipped up the arm a bit it would still fire. Short enough that someone wasn't going to pull your gun and shoot you in the back or your toddler shooting himself while you napped next to the night table where the gun is sitting out.

My whole point is not in favor of purchasing a product. I'm just saying that it WILL hit the market in some way. People will buy "unsafe" products that are marketable in some way.

The average consumer who would buy such a system would be totally fine with the tradeoffs for the measure of perceived safety. This is not a product for High Road posters. It's a product for people who want a gun but want it to feel "safer".

We as the gun community and click our tongues at them and tell them to get training or forget owning a firearm...but that seems a lot like trying to dissuade someone from evoking their 2nd ammendment rights because they don't agree with our point of view that the smart gun technology is a bad idea.

I know it's always stakes and not the odds, but most people who will purchase a smart gun are going to be more likely to die texting and driving than having the technology fail on them in a life or death situation with their gun.

Like I said...just spit balling here. In this hypothetical situation no one is forced to buy a smart gun. Just like some Wheel guys don't buy semis because they don't like mag failures and some black powder guys like the fact that their guns aren't technically firearms and can be fired using homemade propellant. There are numerous reasons not to embrace cutting edge technology, and that's totally fine.

Good idea or bad idea, I think a reasonable discussion isn't a bad thing. As long as it's not mandated at any level of government, I'm fine with people thinking outside the box on how to try and bring new "safe" tech to the market.
 
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Wishful thinking. The laws would stand under the argument that any new approved sales would incorporate existing technology. Nothing preventing manufacture of the items, nothing preventing purchase of the items. It would be no different than California's current list of "approved" firearms.

I agree and think barnbwt is overly confident with his 'dare'. They wouldn't be banning an entire class of weapon.... the technology would be applicable to all types of guns.


Old lady, 'microstamping' is the analog equivalent boondoggle in CA.

The CA roster is worse IMO because it's keeping all new and or improved guns out of CA and there is NO timeline so guns can keep falling off the roster and no new ones are being added.

By CA requiring this, when the MFGRS make a safety improvement, I am not allowed to buy the safest version of that gun.

Since the mictostamping requirement was added to the roster, no guns with safety revisions have been allowed for sale in CA by FFLs
 
If the politicians in the US government think "smart" guns are such a good idea, let the military use them.

You can bet your bottom dollar that those in charge of the military would be against their soldiers using smart guns.

IMO, making a smart gun would not be an advancement in firearms technology(advancements in firearms technology are things that make guns better), but just a way that anti-2A folks can feel better.
 
Fiv3r:
Would it really be doing a favor for the scared-of-guns person who is the hypothetical customer -- is s/he really going to feel better about guns after the electronics fail in an emergency situation? (If s/he is even still alive...) Or are we assuming that after they do some training (IF they get training) they will realize they'd be better off with something more reliable?

And the danger that government at some level WILL mandate this really has to be taken seriously IMO.
 
Fiv3r:
Would it really be doing a favor for the scared-of-guns person who is the hypothetical customer -- is s/he really going to feel better about guns after the electronics fail in an emergency situation? (If s/he is even still alive...) Or are we assuming that after they do some training (IF they get training) they will realize they'd be better off with something more reliable?

And the danger that government at some level WILL mandate this really has to be taken seriously IMO.
I really don't want to want to seem like I'm advocating this product or really understand the potential buyer at a deep level. Marketing and consumer studies will get a much better handle on that.

I'm simply saying that if it was profitable to create a system that would allow a tech savvy non-gun person to arm themselves that they would comfortable with that there has to be some way to do it that is morally responsible for the smart gun buyer's safety yet make them fully aware that there is a statistical chance of failure that most guns won't experience by lacking the "smart" features.

I hate to try an get into what-ifs when it comes to the government mandating the technology. Yes, it could end up an Orwellian 1984 situation. It could also drive the technology so that in addition to being "safe" manufacturers could come up new and cutting edge ways for firearms to operate that are not only compliant but revolutionary to the design. Once again, not saying that's what is going to happen or that I am in favor of it. Just trying to be academic about the topic.

I don't get totally bent out of shape about the electronic components failing. Yes, there will be a learning curve when it comes to design and implementation, but technology always seems to find a way. I mean, my truck probably goes through a gaggle of computations as soon as I turn the key over. In addition to starting, going into gear, and monitoring my speed, it also gives me real time readouts of my tire pressure and monitors if the airbag needs to be released in an accident. It can even alert someone if I am in an accident and use the built in GPS to help locate me. All common place technology on a very mid-level vehicle that that wasn't even really a thing even 20 years ago.

I guess my main point is that if the government doesn't force it at any level and consumers are 100% educated on what the shortcomings are, I'm not completely opposed to something being offered for that pushes the technology. I'm not looking for a replacement for my firearms, but I think ignoring possible innovations is shortsighted in the long run...even if I would totally love to have a matchlock blunderbuss to mess around with at the range:D
 
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