smart guns

[taliv]

from slashdot

According to the press release, smart guns demonstrated by the NJIT, can recognise authorised users utilising "sixteen electronic computerized sensors embedded in the gun's grip" and "Under New Jersey law, passed in Dec. 2002, only smart guns can be purchased in the state three years after personalized handguns become commercially available. Lautenberg said New Jersey's legislative effort to introduce smart gun technology should be a national model for the country"."

from a practical standpoint, take car theft as an example. criminals have always been able to bypass the locks and steal the cars or the stereos. amatuer mechanics can easily bypass speed regulators the japanese have put on their cars.

from a hardware hacking standpoint, hackers drive microsoft crazy (xbox), and ipod, and tivo, and those barcode scanners... the list is endless. (for those of you unfamiliar with this, basically "hardware hacking" is stuff like cracking open the case on your tivo and replacing the 40gig hard drive with a 160gig hard drive which lets you record 4x as many movies etc. it's arguably illegal, but very common and easy.)

the point is,

does anybody really think the comparatively TINY companies like Smith & Wesson or Beretta or Glock or Sig Sauer, with no history of electronic expertise or computer security and very limited resources, could design a security system that couldn't be bypassed by a 13 yr old following instructions he downloaded off the internet?

in the market for illegal guns, i doubt "smart guns" stand a chance. obviously, we're creating a market for firearm chop-shops that at most will add a 20% premium to the cost of illegal guns. and since we're forcing criminals to funnel their guns through a professional criminal to make them servicable, they'll probably tack on some "value-add" services like scrubbing serial numbers, modifying the rifling etc to foil "ballistic fingerprinting" databases, etc.

alas, unintended consequences

 

[USP45usp]

I don't even trust the guns that have that internal locking thing, they expect me to trust these

Also, I've worked with and around computer since 1989, and I've noticed that they crash right when you need to save something.

Also, what do you do in cold weather when you have gloves on? What about when you sweat in the summer? What about little things like being wounded and you have blood on your hands? What about operating temperatures (since most computers will crash if too cold, or too hot)? What about right hand compared to left hand? What about rain? Water? Cleaning oils and lubricates? Not to mention that the firing of a gun is very violet on the frame, the slide, all internal parts, what about a fragil computer chip?

No thank you, I'll use old technology for my guns.

Wayne

 

[Gordon Fink]

Well, obviously we’ll need tighter controls on the Internet. As for “crashes,†guns are for hunting and target shooting, so you can just stop and have your firearm repaired if its smart technology malfunctions.

~G. Fink, with sarcasm

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

Any bill trying to push "smart guns" should be titled, "Smart guns, Stupid politicians..." Only a fool would think this would deter criminals.

 

[mhdishere]

It's already been done in NJ. We're just waiting for someone to come out with a smart gun, then that's all you'll be able to own.

Gotta stock up on dumb guns before that happens.

 

[jefnvk]

The point I keep bringing up, is who programs them? If you have to take them to the police station, whats to say they can't charge you as much as they want, or just refse to do it. Whats to say that they can't require you to come in once a year to have it programmed, and at the same time check that you are still able o own it? If it is the dealer, what if they decide to charge you lots of money to get it programmed? Or, what if they are such a small shop they can't afford the technology to do it? IF a person can program t, well, it kind of defeats the purpose.

 

[RavenVT100]

does anybody really think the comparatively TINY companies like Smith & Wesson or Beretta or Glock or Sig Sauer, with no history of electronic expertise or computer security and very limited resources, could design a security system that couldn't be bypassed by a 13 yr old following instructions he downloaded off the internet?

No, and neither do they. The only remaining company that is willing to market a "smart gun" for New Jersey is Metalstorm. You might not recognize the name because this particular company has never successfully brought a product to market during its existence.

The smart gun fiasco in NJ is becoming more comical every time I hear about it. I'm just hoping that it won't happen for a few more years, at which time I'll be able to laugh with my family after I move them into a state that doesn't throw its taxpayers' money down the toilet.

The point I keep bringing up, is who programs them? If you have to take them to the police station, whats to say they can't charge you as much as they want, or just refse to do it. Whats to say that they can't require you to come in once a year to have it programmed, and at the same time check that you are still able o own it? If it is the dealer, what if they decide to charge you lots of money to get it programmed? Or, what if they are such a small shop they can't afford the technology to do it? IF a person can program t, well, it kind of defeats the purpose.

Oh, I'm sure there'll be a hefty fee for programming it, in addition to the fact that you'll also have to pay for this newfangled technology, and also the cost of the actual gun. I highly doubt the state will entrust you, a mere peon, to program this "personalized" firearm. Rather, it will be done at some "authorized" facility and if it doesn't work, then too bad. It's all about making it impossible for people to own a gun in the first place, so this comes as no surprise. Meanwhile, gangs and other armed criminals are and will always be free to own whatever equipment they choose.

If it were really about public safety, New Jersey would not have written a provision into this bill that exempts the state from being sued if the smart gun gets someone killed.

 

[Flyboy]

"hardware hacking" is stuff like cracking open the case on your tivo and replacing the 40gig hard drive with a 160gig hard drive which lets you record 4x as many movies etc. it's arguably illegal

And how, exactly, would you argue that it's illegal? I bought the thing, fair and square. It's mine. What I do with it is my business.

Or should I have to ask Dell's permission before I put more memory/faster processor/bigger hard drive in my computer?

 

[E36M3]

I will buy a gun from any manufacturer who boycotts New Jersey state government and will relentlessly encourage a boycott of any company who promotes smart gun technology. I'll leave NO stone unturned.

 

[taliv]

e36m3, it would be kinda cool if NJ state and local police suddenly found themselves unable to purchase any firearms or ammunition, and forced to buy used stuff from other states, or go to *cough* gun shows


(flyboy, in tivo's case, it's not. their policy specifically permits you to do that. i meant more generically however, many hardware mfg bundle software licenses that require you to not screw with your hardware. i was just using tivo as an example lots of people are probably familiar with)

 

[RooK]

Flyboy, read the user agreements. Thanks to CD copying deviants, appearently software/hardware and copyright holders can just about make any demands they want these days. Games for PCs are a prime example. Under US Copyright laws you're allowed to make private backup copies of your software for personal use. User agreements now state that by "buying or using this software, you are granted a license to use and install it on one computer. You may not make copies or duplicate any part of the software." It's almost as if your paying to lease the software, when you're actually buying the product. It wouldn't surprise me if MS and Tivo took similar attitudes with their hardware.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

IIRC, Glock already came out agin "smart" guns, and most of the PRNJ polizei's duty guns are Glocks.

- pdmoderator

 

[Sam Adams]

Flyboy

And how, exactly, would you argue that it's illegal? I bought the thing, fair and square. It's mine. What I do with it is my business.

Try adding an auto sear to your AR-15 and see if the JBT's agree with you. Hell, just try sawing off a few inches from the barrel of it or your shotgun, and then bring it to their offices to see if they like the way it looks.

I agree with you, but unfortunately those with more and bigger guns don't. Such is life in our friendly police state.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Here's the original article:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/njio-sfa121604.php

It's a press-release service for University publicists. I hope American Rifleman sent their own rep and has a more honest appraisal.

Take a close look at the test conditions. NJIT's dog-and-pony show proves nothing except that it's possible to fake any demo. And call it the truth in PRNJ.

- pdmoderator

 

[shermacman]

Smart gun technology is designed to not work. It can't; there are too many clever people who will hack the hardware, hack the software. There are too many variables of gloves, sweat, blood, oil, grease outside temperature, inside temperature, dead batteries, the list is endless.

So once the Smart Gun Laws are passed and they fail (after all what is another law when there are already 22,000 gun laws in the country) then the Bliss Ninnies and the Nanny State will continue on their unending crusade to outlaw all guns.

 

[M1911Owner]

Smart gun??! That's not a smart gun! A smart gun automatically acquires the target, corrects for windage and distance, and guarantees one-shot, one-kill results. We must get our language straight here, folks!

 

[Yooper]

I stopped using guns which required batteries forty-odd years ago.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

jefnvk,

Forget trying to deal with the lock. Think Gordian knot: take the electronics bodily out of the gun and toss them where they belong.

Read my signature.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Any bill trying to push "smart guns" should be titled, "Smart guns, Stupid politicians..." Only a fool would think this would deter criminals.

So-called "smart guns" have nothing to do with crime or criminals. The leftist extremists' only purpose in mandating them is simply to make it more difficult and expensive for law-abiding American citizens to exercise our Second Amendment civil rights.

 

[RooK]

All these smart guns have to contain some metal device within that is moved or disabled by the electronics to allow it to fire. Disabling the technology isn't even as hard as hacking the electronics. A gun isn't a computer with a harddrive and transistors, it's a mechanical invention... just remove the electronic parts and those it affects, replace with new ones if needed. I'd say it would be about as easy to circumvent as S&W's magazines disconnect safties.

 

[jamz]

Well, as for me, I'm perfectly happy to use proven smart gun technology.






As long as the police and military have accepted them for use as well.






What? The NJ Police want nothing whatsoever to do with smart guns? Well, there ya go.


-James