Smokeless powder

[RandyRay41]

I understand the reason for not using smokeless powder in a BP gun. But what I am pondering is what type barrel would be required to have a smokeless muzzleloader? Are there any manufactors that make a smokeless ML pistol or rifle?

What is the big difference from a cartridge barrel and a BP barrel? I would think a gunsmith or custom gun maker could make a smokeless barrel that would shoot say IMR 4350 but have it set up to be a ML.

 

[Oldnamvet]

Savage arms makes one.
http://www.gunblast.com/SavageML10.htm

 

[bubba15301]

savage is discontinued

 

[BullSlinger]

Yup Savage used to make one.

 

[rcmodel]

The problem is not so much the difference in barrel steel strength, or difference in powder pressure curves between black power, and some types of smokeless power.

The problem is that gun owners can't read directions, differentiate between powder labels & brands, or care to understand it.
There are many smokeless powders that could probably safely be used in a black power firearm.
In all, there are probably over 200 different ones available world wide.

But out of all those?
There are many faster burning ones that would take a BP firearm apart like a hand grenade, right in front of your face.

Black powder is a known quantity, and you can't hardly get too much of it in any BP firearm to blow your face off.

Not true with many common and readily available smokeless powders.



Now you are saying, Yea But?
Cartridge Reloaders use smokeless powder all the time without blowing their face off!!

To that, I would say, Yea But, a brass case will only hold so much smokeless, or black powder.

The same cannot be said of a muzzle loader barrel.

rc

 

[kituwa]

Also a smokeless powder gun must have an inclosed breach.The savage muzzle loader has a bolt that incloses the primer completely. I think the barrel has very little to do with a gun being able to handle smokeless.But most of all, it would be the guy dumping smokeless from any old powder down the barrel with a measure in one hand and a beer in the other if you know what i mean,lol.

 

[Pete D.]

Smokeless

That idea of closed vs. open breech is crucial. With either a cap lock or a flintlock, the shooter has a vent only a few inches from his face.
Evidently, at the pressures created by BP, this hole in the breech is not a problem......but smokeless powder (basically plasticized nitroglycerin) works at higher pressures and very different burn rates and it is a problem.
And....there are essentially only four kinds of BP readily available....the only real difference among them is granulation.... FFFFg (very fine) to Fg (coarse). The most commonly used are the two in the middle FFFg and FFg. Very predictable.
Smokeless.....lots and lots of choices with a vast difference in behavior from one end of the spectrum to the other. Some might be suitable for use in BP guns.....but that choice is way beyond my talents.
Pete

 

[Curator]

http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/

 

[ThorinNNY]

I looked at the load chart for that site.Like RC said there`s only a very few smokeless powders that can be safely used.

 

[Slamfire]

Smokeless powder in a muzzle loading rifle?

Sure sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

You could triple charge the thing and it would really go kaboom!

Incidentally, people have been killed with modern blackpowder rifles improperly charged with blackpowder. I recall reading a news item of a kid who was killed when his blackpowder rifle blew up. The news reports were not helpful as to cause, but leave a large enough air gap, stuff in enough blackpowder, you can blow a modern blackpowder barrel.

 

[robhof]

robhof

I reload modern cartridges and weigh the 1st 5 or so rounds and every 10th round after, just to be sure; as stated above, smokeless can make a big pressure difference in only a few grains, too precise for field use as with a B/p gun. I chrono my smokeless loads also to insure consistency and still find some deviation from round to round. With B/p 5 or 10 grains makes little difference in most larger caliber b/p guns. Stick with b/p or subs and be safe!

 

[Patocazador]

I read where Savage was going to make a limited run of their 10 ML II but that may have changed. If you have a discontinued Remington 700 ML, it can be converted to use smokeless. A couple of outfits specialize in it.

I wish Ruger would make a special run of the ROA.

 

[RandyRay41]

Don't get me wrong. I love the smoke and smell of BP. Was just curious why some types or why someone has not invented a cleaner possibly smokeless version that is suitable for modern BP guns.

This post was more of a curiosity. Surprised someone has not come up with a better mouse trap.

 

[RandyRay41]

I have a modern inline. Cva Accura v2 with a modified breech plug that is supposed to shoot buck horn 209 which is pretty close to smokeless yet I have problems getting it to lite off so I stuck with t7 in in and achieve amazing accuracy. Just surprising there is no powder for the C&B Guess that would take the fun out of it.

 

[davepool]

I read where Savage was going to make a limited run of their 10 ML II but that may have changed. If you have a discontinued Remington 700 ML, it can be converted to use smokeless. A couple of outfits specialize in it.

I wish Ruger would make a special run of the ROA.

I think they did a while back, i bought 2 new in the box 8 months ago, the dealer i bought them from in Pennsylvania had 5 left at that time, here's one of them

 

[Temp430]

There are advantages to a muzzleloader that uses smokeless powder. Unfortunately using smokeless powder is not considered legal by some states for hunting deer during muzzleloader season.

 

[Patocazador]

As I understand it, both Blackhorn 209 and 777 are smokeless powders that have been modified to conform to the rules of a using a black powder substitute.
777 is supposed to be 15% more powerful than the same WEIGHT of BP and BH209 is supposed to be ~ 30% more powerful than BP by WEIGHT.

 

[RandyRay41]

I don't think Blackhorn 209 will ignite with a cap. It's hard enough to get to ignite with a 209 mag. primer!

777 is more powerful than BP, but far from smokeless in my opinion.

 

[Busyhands94]

I've contemplated building a smokeless muzzle loading rifle in .32 before. I've already made a barrel for my Rossi .410 that fires .32 S&W Longs, and that turns out to be an awesome little rifle round.

What I am envisioning is a rifle that is built to look like a half stocked plains rifle. Caplock (perhaps even with a 209 adapter if regular caps aren't enough) and nice brass or maybe iron furniture, and a nice walnut stock. For the barrel I'm thinking a nice long .308 or 7.62 with a slow enough twist should do the trick nicely, the breech plug would have to be VERY strong and the muzzle would have to be tapered to make loading conical bullets easy. Buck horn sights would be a must.

For the load I'm thinking maybe some 100 grain LRN bullets pushed by Green Dot or Bullseye to around 1000-1200 FPS. That would be a pretty useful little lead pusher, plus it would look cooler then my .32 single shot.

 

[Pete D.]

For the load I'm thinking maybe some 100 grain LRN bullets pushed by Green Dot or Bullseye to around 1000-1200 FPS. That would be a pretty useful little lead pusher, plus it would look cooler then my .32 single shot.

The idea of building your own gun is admirable.
Don't quite see the point of making it for smokeless. You can get those ballistics from BP.
Another thought....it surely would not take much Bulleye to push a 100 gr. bullet to 1200 fps. Two or three grains? I find myself wondering about pouring such a small charge down a longish barrel. Perhaps it is not an issue... The bullet will wipe the barrel as it seats. I suppose.