Why can’t you load muzzleloader with smokeless powder?

Bazoo

Bazoo

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I know you ain’t supposed to attempt loading a ML with smokeless. However I want to understand why.

So my thought process is,

If you can take a black powder era 45/70 trapdoor, and reload it safely with smokeless, why can’t you load a similar load in a muzzleloader. Course you would have to not seat the bullet against the powder. So if you could figure a way to have consistent seating depth then could you load at 13,000 psi for example and be safe?

Im interested as to why not, and if there is any articles about it anyone could direct me to.
 
I'll be interested to hear what others have to say. I wonder if it could have anything to do with there being such a huge variety of smokeless powders and the fact that they should be measured by weight, not volume? I imagine there'd be a lot of potential liability concerns for the manufacturers.
 
That’s a good point. If you have a 45 caliber ML and treat it like 45/70, using the book minimum charge of 48 grains of 3031 with a 457191 bullet, and used an equivalent weight bullet, and seated the bullet to leave similar air space,,, and it then was close to the 12k psi the book suggests, would it not then be safe for a ML?

So that’s my question, why is that not safe? Is it just that you don’t have any idea of the pressure?

Is it that the people that have tried it were ignorant of metallic reloading and blew up their gun because they didn’t try to duplicate a known load?

Does it matter what powder one used? Unique, 4198, 3031?
 
That’s the standard answer. But it doesn’t tell what happened or why. I want to know why.

I want to see where folks experimented and the details. Not just the old “you’ll blow yourself up”.
 
What kind of pressure does it take to blow a ML like that?

Modern guns blow up too... so it’s not an new thing.

Smokeless, when loaded properly in a modern gun is safe. Add too much powder, or decrease the air space, and the pressure rises.
 
A smokeless powder charge that will duplicate the original muzzle velocity created by a black powder load is still going to have a higher pressure spike at the chamber due to the different burn characteristics/burn rates of the powders. Even though the bullet speed at the muzzle can be matched, the pressure/time to get it there is going to be different. If a gun isn't specifically designed to handle the pressure spikes associated with smokeless, it can be dangerous.
 
Theoretically it COULD be done. But no one to my knowledge has figured out the specs for a safe load. And if they did, it would be a very low powered load.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
Every muzzleloding rifle I have owned (even my Remington 700 ML) vent gases thru the nipple for the percussion cap.
Smokeless rifle powder would generate higher pressure than black powder or BP substitutes ( Pyrodex, Triple7, etc).
Click to expand...
Inline ML's don't vent gasses anywhere other than the muzzle. Even with a side lock, the gasses venting out the nipple or touch hole isn't intended to relieve pressure, it's just a side effect of having an open path into the breech.
 
Too much that could go wrong. “Use only holy black or a 1:1 substitute” is a lot easier to understand than trying to school the world on one specific safe load of one specific powder with one particular bullet weight, never mind the complication in getting a consistent and repeatable air gap.
 
Course you would have to not seat the bullet against the powder. So if you could figure a way to have consistent seating depth then could you load at 13,000 psi for example and be safe?
Click to expand...
As you note, the volume of space available for the initial combustion process and gas expansion is a major factor in pressure of smokeless powder loads. Just picking a bullet weight and powder charge won't work--you have to make sure that you have the right amount of space to get the process started without letting the pressure spike too high but not so much that you ruin performance.

I think that if you could figure all that out and devise a method to keep everything consistent, you could probably manage safe smokeless powder loads. It would be interesting to see:

1. How many guns you would have to blow up to get everything right.
2. How you would solve the consistent seating depth issue practically and yet still allow some safe load development.
3. What powders would work best.
4. How you would measure pressure accurately.

I think it would be a fun (and expensive and potentially dangerous) project.

Short answer:
If there were money to be made and it could be done safely, you'd be able to go buy one at Wal-Mart.
 
I appreciate the replies.

In my thought experiment I have figured out so far how to seat a bullet the same depth; A ram rod with a stop collar made into it.

I’d think getting the charge close to duplicating a black powder cartridge would be easy enough. If you had a 45 caliber ML and used 45/70 as a base, then let’s say for example 10 grains unique left 1.1” of airspace above the powder to the bullet base, And it’s a 300 grain bullet. Just measure the top of the powder charge tp the crown of the ML barrel and figure the seating depth. Using corresponding same weight bullet, even if it isn’t the same design.

Yes chamber shape changes pressure some. But I think at 10k-15k psi it isn’t much of an issue.

I did see the benefit of an inline. Should such an experiment be undertaken.

So my thinking is not that far fetched, I imagine others have thought similar considering they made a commercial ML for smokeless. I’d heard of that, but not seen anything about it other than a few comments. If I could find some experiments on it, would be right interesting.

I don’t plan to do any of this. Now, if I found an old article that says they did exactly this and was it pressure tested and so forth I may, but that isn’t likely.
 
You can, actually. I know a fellow who does, and I wish he would publish his findings. He's a firm believer, though, that the internet is more heat than light, and anyway he doesn't want to get sued. (He blew up several guns on his way to enlightenment.)

The brave and foolish among us are welcome to follow the same path, of course. I'm hopeful that I won't be on the bench next to you.
 
It could be done, it has been done, but the the variables involved (that most folks don't understand) can and will get you veering off the safe road fast if the parameters are not correct.
Some of the more obvious -
The amount of powder is more critical in smokeless
The air gap is more critical with smokeless (and seating the ball firmly on the powder is likely NOT the best method)
Projectile weight is more critical
Projectile fit it the barrel is more critical
Pressures can quickly get higher with smokeless
What might be developed to work well and be safe in one muzzleloader could be a pipe bomb in the next.
 
As others have said it can be done with varying levels of safety in what are traditionally black powder weapons. It is typically not advised.

That said there are modern muzzle loaders out there that are designed for use with modern smokeless powders. That are an extremely niche market but if you search around you can find a couple makers building them.
 
Ruger proofed the Old Army by stuffing a cylinder full of Bullseye and shooting it, it didn't blow up, but that's a Ruger. Don't try it at home. There's an internet u tube video of a bonehead loading a remmie with smokeless powder using a spoon for a powder measure. It didn't blow up either, it's just a matter of time on that one. I don't recall what powder he was using.
 
To me, this thread is nothing more than asinine. Why do people buy black powder firearms in the first place ? To see if they can blow them up ? No. They're bought because we like to shoot guns the way it was done back when the country was settled. You want to shoot nitro powders, then buy a cartridge gun that was intended for smokeless powders. Back when I started there was only loose powder and you learned what charge shot the best. It was part of the muzzleloading thing. Now a days it's BP pellets, inlines, and just harvesting another deer. Or better yet, asking " how can I blow up my gun with powders not intended for it ?" Have a good day. :)
 
Its not asinine if the gun is designed from the ground up to use smokeless powder. With the right research and knowledge its not completely crazy in a modern built blackpowder muzzle loading gun but few of us have the knowledge and equipment to research that option safely. And since smokeless muzzle loaders exist there is not much reason to do so.

If you do a google search for: [smokeless muzzle loader] the first 9+ results are for companies making muzzle loaders specifically designed to use smokeless powders or articles about companies that make smokeless muzzle loaders.

With the increasing number of days available in muzzle loading hunting seasons and more relax requirements to qualify as a muzzle loader the smokeless muzzle loader was an obvious and inevitable result.
 
these debates always end with someone claiming to be an engineer ranting about pressure curves and speed of detonation because black powder is flammable and smokeless powder is explosive (yea, that's not true, and not a misprint -that's how the lecture goes). The reality is 3 things.
1 seating depth.
2 ease of screwing it all up
3 incomplete priming seal/insufficient primer flame.

If you can address those three issues, there should be no issue.
A double charge of fast powder will blow it up.
A full load of rifle powder will probably blow it up.
A light load of rifle powder may blow it up.

I have seen rifle powder "flashover" blow up some modern rifles. .223 loaded with 18 grains of H335.
 
Bazoo said:
I appreciate the replies.

In my thought experiment I have figured out so far how to seat a bullet the same depth; A ram rod with a stop collar made into it.

I’d think getting the charge close to duplicating a black powder cartridge would be easy enough. If you had a 45 caliber ML and used 45/70 as a base, then let’s say for example 10 grains unique left 1.1” of airspace above the powder to the bullet base, And it’s a 300 grain bullet. Just measure the top of the powder charge tp the crown of the ML barrel and figure the seating depth. Using corresponding same weight bullet, even if it isn’t the same design.

Yes chamber shape changes pressure some. But I think at 10k-15k psi it isn’t much of an issue.

I did see the benefit of an inline. Should such an experiment be undertaken.

So my thinking is not that far fetched, I imagine others have thought similar considering they made a commercial ML for smokeless. I’d heard of that, but not seen anything about it other than a few comments. If I could find some experiments on it, would be right interesting.

I don’t plan to do any of this. Now, if I found an old article that says they did exactly this and was it pressure tested and so forth I may, but that isn’t likely.
Click to expand...
@mjsdwash not an engineer. Just an old guy with 8 mostly functional fingers and both thumbs intact..


It is done every day in rifles designed for it. Your .45 caliber side lock isn’t designed for it in any way shape or form …

modernmuzzleoader.com has everything you need to know about this aspect of muzzleloading rifles. Essentially they are shooting caseless ammunition in rifles built for it. These rifles are generally at least .40 caliber and shooting copper jacketed bullets at high velocity with the attendant high pressures. Not a game for bubba. Rifles cost upwards of $1500 for starters and if you screw up you’ve touched off a hand grenade.
 
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