Why can’t you load muzzleloader with smokeless powder?

[45 Dragoon]

If it's the pics I posted I believe I said it was an overload with the cartridge cylinder. The other one was a cap and ball cylinder loaded with smokeless.

Yessir, I was just pointing out it was the cylinder with the improper load that failed not the "platform".
Thanks Hawg.

Mike

 

[Bcwitt]

Seat depth is critical to pressure w smokeless. That is very difficult to control in a muzzy.

 

[JohnKSa]

Well I have another thought. If I was to get into it, and if I figured my load to be x, I would first proof the gun by adding powder to make extra pressure. Then if it held, it would certainly be safe for the intended charge.

The problem is getting the seating depth right and doing it repeatedly to the precision necessary. Very small changes in seating depth can make huge differences.

So let's say you come up with a proof load that's 1.5x your desired loading. You do your test with the proof load, and the gun holds. Then you use your intended load but you get the seating depth too deep by 0.1". That could, depending on the variables, more than double the intended pressure--which would now be much higher than your proof load.

Or maybe you get your seating depth off on your proof load and it really only generates 0.5x of your intended load because the bullet is seated too far out. Now you do your test with your intended load and the gun blows because your proof testing was essentially meaningless.

The issue isn't proving that the gun would be safe for a given load, it's coming up with a way to very precisely control the loading process so that you can also precisely control the pressures, time after time, with little or no chance for error.

You will need to come up with a way to measure seating depth so that it can be done repeatedly to very good precision.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know if it is precise enough for nitro, but the Swiss Federal .41 uses the Wild system ramrod with a shoulder that stops it at the desired seating depth.

 

[JohnKSa]

I would think that would be good as long as it's always used with the same length bullet and as long as you are good with always using exactly the same load.

 

[Bazoo]

Yeah that’s sorta what I was thinking, a stop collar built on a ram rod.

Let’s say the seating depth duplicated a known 45/70 loads volume then you could use any powder charge under that column in the reloading manual.

A variety of bullets isn’t needed but would easily be available with a variety of ramrods, each set permanently with their own respective seating depths.

Round balls are all the same so there is no variety there and people are happy.

 

[woodnbow]

It looks like you all are trying to re-invent the wheel. Head on over to modern muzzleloading forum and read. It’s been done, it’s done every day, safely. Guessing with loading rods and stops and whatnot all is fine but ignition is key among other things. The forum moderators and a good number of members and contributors are experts in this field…it would seem like a wise idea to let them guide you. Hate to see you changing your nom de plume to “Lefty” or “Cyclops”…

@JohnKSa apologies in advance if this violates terms of service or anything, if it does please delete… and thanks for your part in making one of the best forums on the web. Happy and prosperous New Year!

 

[Jim Watson]

Phew, I leafed through that board and feel like I have had a net loss of information.

 

[JohnKSa]

@JohnKSa apologies in advance if this violates terms of service or anything...

Nope, not at all. If you have a useful link or resource that speaks to the issue it's fine to provide it--that applies to other forums as well.

 

[Bazoo]

I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel, just pondering it. I didn’t know others had tried it before successfully.

 

[woodnbow]

I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel, just pondering it. I didn’t know others had tried it before successfully.

There’s a fairly large community of smokeless muzzleloader shooters. (SML) Have long range competitions etc.

 

[Bazoo]

There’s a fairly large community of smokeless muzzleloader shooters. (SML) Have long range competitions etc.

Thanks. I had no idea. I’ll refine my search towards that for now.

 

[woodnbow]

Thanks. I had no idea. I’ll refine my search towards that for now.

I see maxed out credit cards or drained retirement accounts in the future… Enjoy!

 

[Simplereloader81]

Im sure they told ya but savage did one time and some guys went crazy over them....cleaner im sure but not a tremendous advantage

 

[Onty]

As some of you mentioned, when loading smokeless powder in percussion guns, bullet seating depth is extremely critical. Personally, I wouldn't even think about that unless there is a way to have foolproof system that will prevent pushing bullet too far. Here is excellent cylinder design for C&B revolvers that prevents going too far:

Also, this one is designed to use shotgun 209 primers, or 209 adapters for small pistol primers.

As a matter of fact, few years back I proposed a group buy for such conversion cylinder https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...mers-for-ruger-old-army.873826/#post-11617362 . Unfortunately, I couldn't gather enough interest (50 minimum for each type of revolver) to get manufacturing started.

 

[1066]

Using nitro powder in muzzle loading handguns is not that unusual over here in the UK - Either typical Colt/Remington type cap & ball conversions or conversions built on modern frames. These have been developed due to our restrictive gun laws.
Why Nitro? (anvilconversions.co.uk)

Westlake Engineering - Products

Of course, plenty of guys shoot black powder muzzle loaders but some indoor ranges don't allow it.

Here are a couple of my nitro muzzle loaders, one is a .357 Alpha and the other is a 5 shot .32 muzzle loading target pistol.



This is the .357, sandbag rest, open sights at 20 yards: (158gn hand cast bullet, 3.2 gns Unique)

 

[bearcreek]

View attachment 1137075

Never seen anything like that. So you actually load each round through the muzzle, rotate the cylinder and then load the next?

 

[Jim Watson]

Please say more about the .32.
It looks like a development of the Jonathon Browning "harmonica" action.

Never seen anything like that. So you actually load each round through the muzzle, rotate the cylinder and then load the next?

No, you swing the cylinder out, take it off the yoke, load it on the bench, and put it back in the gun. Westlake will sell you extra cylinders so you can do a modern Clint Eastwood.
Go to the Westlake link and read about their guns. Including a go-round with the authorities meant to put them out of business.

 

[hk940]

On the revolver what is the ignition source, primer or cap?
Savage makes a rifle that takes smokeless powder.

 

[1066]

The .357 uses 209 shot shell primers and loading the cylinders is done with the cylinder removed. Although the converted revolver is sold with a press to load the cylinders it's a pretty poor affair, so I have made a few better presses to make loading easier. Once you get used to it, it's really quite straight forward. If you have a second cylinder already loaded it only takes a few seconds to change cylinders. Once loaded it's just like shooting any other revolver, although not full house .357 loads, more .38 spec territory.
Here's my press in action:


Before our pistols were snatches from us I was a keen precision pistol shooter, my main game was the UIT Centrefire match. This is a one handed, open sight 25 yard match on stationary and turning targets. When I started, late '70's I was using a S&W Mod 14 .38 spec, single action only, target version. At that time there was a fair mix of pistols on the line, a few S&W 52's, one or two quality revolvers, the odd tricked up Gold Cups etc, but starting to creep in were the new breed of .32's. Walther, Pardini, Hammerli, Des 69's, FAS.
Within a couple of years it soon became plain the .32's were wining all the matches, I switched to a Walther GSP and then to a Pardini, both chambered for the .32 S&W Long full wadcutter.
When semi-auto pistols were banned here (UK) we were unable to compete in International matches. We were still able to have muzzle loaders, so some enterprising chap designed the .32 5 shot muzzle loader - it complied with our laws and also complied with the rules for international competition. Unfortunately the take up was quite limited and the company folded. These 5 shot muzzle loaders are quite rare and date from the '80's. I believe there were only a few hundred made.
They are of the harmonica design, with a 5 shot block moving across the frame. Once loaded, they are just like shooting any other quality purpose built .32 target pistol. they take a 98gn full wadcutter and a standard pistol primer.

 

[Bazoo]

Wow @1066 thank you for sharing that.

I very much appreciate that. I had no idea. I also very much feel for you for being in a country that has removed your arms to that extent.

 

[1066]

Thanks Bazoo, I've shot all my life, started competing at adult level in prone smallbore competitions when I was 11 and shot my first longrange fullbore match at 13 in the early '60s. It was a 900yd match, shot with my Dads .303 P14 Enfield. Everything in those days was sling and aperture sights.
Although you needed a permit for a firearm is was cheap and easy. Every single small town had at least one, but often several rifle clubs, nearly all geared to prone match shooting. All the town ranges were 25, 50 or 100yds and there were plenty of local 3-600 yd ranges and few 1,000 -1,200 yd ranges. A great majority of club shooters used BSA Martini's of some sort, from a fairly basic 12/15 to the more up-market 2/3/4/5 Internationals. During the '70 a few Walthers, Anschutz, Finnish Lion, Russian CM-2 appeared.
About that time I switched to pistol shooting, again a permit was needed but not difficult and no restrictions really on what you could have. Things really started to fall apart in 1987 (Hungerford) after a mass shooting (Very rare over here) With typical knee-jerk reaction, politicians needing to be seen to do something and the media working it's self into a frensy high capacity magazine pump and semi-auto shotguns and semi-auto rifles were banned.
Then in 1996 another mass shooting (Dunblane) just about sealed the fate of handguns, all banned except for muzzle loaders.
Rifles, on the whole are not a problem, again a permit is needed, and more hoops to jump through every time. I have a enough to cover me from rats in the barn to red deer and everything in between but it's becoming an uphill struggle, death by a hundred cuts.
It creeps up on you a bit at time, so slow you don't notice it. Tomorrow morning I'm off to a local club to shoot a 25yd offhand comp with my .357 Winchester 94AE.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

The answer is you can and many people do.
The obvious risk is that it's relatively easy to blow up a muzzleloader with smokeless powder, especially the "wrong" smokeless powder. It is difficult to blow one up with black powder.

If anyone is really serious about it, order one of these;
https://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/muzzleloaders/

 

[hk940]

Some nice stuff here:
https://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/muzzleloaders/