Snub nosed learning curve?

[Mad Chemist]

I don't understand why so many here advise snap-caps for S&W revolvers. The manual that came with my 642 clearly states that it is safe to dry fire and that you do not need snap-caps for dry-fire practice. I sometimes use snaps for FTF drills with the Glock but never with the smith. Is there some reason for snaps or is this just a personal preference?

New j-frame out of the box can have their trggers/actions improved dramatically by a competent gunsmith. My groups shrunk considerably after I had it done.

 

[Will5A1]

Mad Chemist - many of us are carrying/shooting older revolvers with firing pins mounted on the hammer rather than in the frame, and snap caps make sense for use in such revolvers. They also help with reloading drills if you are using a speed strip or speed loader.

 

[MCgunner]

I even use snap caps in my Rugers. I'm just paranoid, I guess.

 

[33-805]

Sometimes nothing else can be carried other than a snubbie and still not look like you are carrying. Practice makes for skill, and don't forget that the same reasons you carry a snubbie for backup still apply when it is your primary. I don't want to sound too paranoid or "Ramboish" here, but if you are carrying a J-frame for your primary, think about making it two or trying out a mini revolver (NAA etc.) as your backup. Guns fail, get dropped and otherwise go south on you. They are mechanical objects after all. Also, the fastest reload is usually another loaded gun.

 

[Old Fuff]

When you dry-fire a revolver (or for that matter any firearm) The firing pin is driven fully forward rather then stopped by a primer. In time a number of bad things may happen, including battering the firing pin's shoulder and/or mashing the firing pin spring - if there is one. Modest dry-firing may or may not have a detrimental effect, so a set of snap-caps is inexpensive insurance.

S&W and some others say that in their products snap-caps are unnecessary, but over the years I have examined a number of Smith & Wesson's (and others) with firing pin problems related to extensive dry-firing. Consequently I take their claim with a grain of salt. Others may do as they see fit.

No MCgunner, you are not paranoid, you're smart.

 

[chaim]

how long did it take you to learn how to shoot your 2" revolver reasonably well?

I'll let you know when I get there

Seriously, I got my first snub a few years ago. I had been shooting revolvers (my first handgun was a revolver) and I love .357mag. I decided to buy a steel Taurus 605 (.357mag) and it was highly unpleasant and wasn't fun even in .38spl. I ended up selling long before I got used to it.

About a year later I bought a Taurus 85CH (DAO). I like it, but I am only accurate at very short ranges. I also have a S&W 442 (lightweight aluminium .38spl) and it isn't fun to shoot. I am a big .41mag fan, but lightweight .38s are no fun. With the short sight radius even the more pleasant 85 is hard to hit with any precision.

They are good enough for close in (25 feet and under) defense, but not for more (for me).

I plan to do as Preacherman suggests. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I definately plan to get a .22lr snub. .22 is low recoiling even in a very light revolver and they are inexpensive so I could get a lot more practice than even with .38s out of my 85CH. It is good advice and you should consider it as well.

Oh yes, and to repeat what others have said- dry fire, dry fire, and more dry fire. Get used to that trigger and that will make a world of difference.

 

[lawboy]

+1 to standing wolf.
the issue is no different than with any other gun -- the gun must fit the hand holding.
With j frames, snubbie or longer, they are so small the don't fit many hands well. Proper grips make a huge difference, as do guns with adjustable sights.

My snubs are K frame guns, usually K frame magnums with adjustable sights. they shoot very accurately but the gun has to fit you and J frames do not fit me.

 

[brownie0486]

The snubs are not that difficult to shoot well. The difficulty for most comess in the form of trying to make those tiny little groups at longer distances than the gun is designed for.

I recommend a 5 shot J frame gun to many women/wives as their first gun unlike others who feel it is the wrong answer to their needs. I feel the snubs, when used in the proper context of their mission statement solve several issues for women who have little to no prior experience with handguns.

They are easy to load, don't require hand strength to rack slides, don't have safeties to worry about learning, require minimal training at the distances they'll be likely used at [ and bought for ], and can be left loaded for years without potentially being worse for wear in doing so.

The learning curve of operation is simple and easy to remember. For a new shooter or woman who will shoot little and have to rely on "remembering' what to do in crisis, just point and pull is all they really need to remember to get the thing to bark in answer to threats on their person.

For the ranges they'll really be used in a SD scenario, who cares that the sights are small and hard to see. If you are in that type of problem, with little to no training, little to no practice [ which includes many in the snub category ], if you are taking the time to align the sights, you are taking too long to resolve the issues likely at hand.

Brownie

 

[10-Ring]

It took me a while. When I first got my j-frame, I didn't have the patience I needed so I did not put the trigger time I needed to be proficient w/ it. Then, when I finally did put the time into it, I love that gun!
All & all...probably about 1000 rounds - in about a couple month's worth of range sessions

 

[Eskimo Jim]

My first and only snubby is a S&W model 19 with a 2-1/2" barrel. I'm not the greatest pistolero however I can shoot less than 4" groups at 25ft single action and probably around the same while shooting double action.

A snub nose revolver is a challenging handgun to shoot well, however it is not a skill that cannot be learned.

My guess would be that you could become proficient with a snub nose by going through about 500 rounds or so. This is just a guess and I just picked a number.

Jim

 

[BigG]

S&W and some others say that in their products snap-caps are unnecessary, but over the years I have examined a number of Smith & Wesson's (and others) with firing pin problems related to extensive dry-firing. Consequently I take their claim with a grain of salt.

Old Fuff - you crack me up. I don't often get to read wisdom from somebody who knows better than the manufacturer. Thanks for the enlightenment!

 

[Glamdring]

For me it was somewhere around 300 rounds before I started shooting groups vs patterns. That isn't counting the dryfiring (probably 900+ dryfiring pulls).

Buy a case of Win's White Box USA 38/130 fmj for practice. After you shoot all of that you will be better. Other thing with snubbies is don't try to shoot 50 rounds per range trip, I stick to 15-20 rounds thru the j frame per trip.

 

[GRIZ22]

Many people feel that snub nose revolvers are inaccurate due to small size and barrel length. If you put that revolver in a rest you'll see that it's just as accurate as any other revolver. There all limitations like shooting wadcutters at 50 yds will result in some rounds keyholing but that's an ammunition issue. I qualify with a S&W Model 60 and have no problem keeping everything in the 5 zone. I know shooters who can reliably do head shots at 50 yds on paper all day long with a J frame (I am not one of them, 25 yds most of the time going to single action).

The secret is practice. 15-20 rounds per range session is not going to develop any expertise. Some of the problems shooters have from mastering a small revolver are:

1. The fascination with getting the lightest gun possible. Shooting a steel vs an aluminum frame will reduce recoil 25-30%. If you're beating yourself with recoil you're not going to shoot as much therefore not get a lot of practice. I think the 9 oz ultra-lite revolvers are made for those who like to inflict pain on themselves. There are so many macho men who carry an airweight because a steel frame "gets heavy". We're talking an extra 6-8 ounces here. A 200 pound (or even 150 pound guy) who has a problem carrying 8 extra ounces needs to spend some time at the gym.

2. Ammunition is also a factor. Don't practice with that +P load. I don't like using +Ps in a J frame as you really don't gain a lot. Recoil is not fun when you're shooting a lot. Wadcutters are good. The 130 fmj load is also but it seems to have more muzzle blast than standard pressure loads (although it is a std pressure load).

3. Sights were poor but are getting better. The sights on the newer S&Ws are a lot better similar to K frame fixed sights. A friend of mine has a Model 60 with factory adjustable sights which is easy to shoot but I'll admit look starnge on a J frame and ruin the compactness to some degree.

4. Grips can make a big difference. I use Uncle Mikes that extend a little below the butt of the grip and are a little wider than the stock skinny wood grips J frames used to come with. I'm not talking about some of these grips I've seen which look like they belong on a N frame. Larger grips also result in less felt recoil by spreading it out instead of concentrating it.

Like anything else you can't get good with it unless you practice, practice, practice. All the things I've mentioned will make your practice more enjoyable which means you'll do it more.

 

[Dr_Kaufman]

Thanks to everyone who's responded so far. Another question:

How do the steel snubs compare to the airweights for developing accuracy? I'm interested in the slightly larger (like the sp101 and s&w640) as well as the JFrame lookalikes like the Taurus 85/850 (non-ul).

 

[chaim]

How do the steel snubs compare to the airweights for developing accuracy? I'm interested in the slightly larger (like the sp101 and s&w640) as well as the JFrame lookalikes like the Taurus 85/850 (non-ul).

I have a steel Taurus 85CH (DAO/bobbed hammer) and an aluminium S&W 442.

The steel guns will do two things for you for accuracy:
-The steel Taurus 85 is so much more pleasant to shoot than the 442. That means more trigger time at the range (you can handle it much better) and more practice time means more accuracy.
-The steel guns will have much less felt recoil allowing you to get back on target faster for quicker follow-up shots. That can make the difference in a life or death self-defense situation.

 

[Cosmoline]

I confess it's taken me many years to get OK with snubbies. While among the easiest to *fire*, they're among the most challenging short guns to learn to fire *well*. They can be extremely accurate, in spite of their reputation. But it takes a practiced hand to get that accuracy to show itself.

Get training, then practice practice practice. Once you know how to shoot a snubbie well, other firearms seem simple.

I'd also suggest trying some small game hunting with them. Nothing will make you more humble than going through your chambers and clean missing at ten feet with every one while Mr. Squirrel chitters at you. That's when Mr. Squirrel meets Mr. CZ 452.

 

[up_onus]

how long? as many rounds as it takes....1000? 2000? 5000?
I dry fire mine every day to account for the 12lb trigger pull, and i shoot it weekly to be sure i can hit my target both standing and moving.

there are a few gunsmiths out there that will reduce the trigger pull to about 8lbs if you are willing to pay and lower the "safety".

Or you could always just get a bigger gun, and carry that-Even if you have less than a 1% chance of pulling the gun in your entire life....

 

[Jkwas]

I agree with the 12lb hammer spring. Anything less can be dangerously light. My snub came with an 8lber that developed a light strike problem. Upgraded to a 12 and never had a problem since. Perceived pull is hardly any difference.

 

[BigG]

how long?

If you are paying attention to what you're doing, you should see significant improvement with each box of cartridges expended, especially the first several. If you are just making noise, you may never see improvement and you can join the chorus of those that say "a snubby can't hit anything." You should be able to DA pop cans off of a fence post at 50 feet after shooting maybe 200 - 300 rounds, if you are watching what you're doing.

 

[SnWnMe]

I had my DA trigger technique down when I finally bought my first snubby. Today I have 6 of them

I use one sometimes for combat matches to give myself a good assessment of where I am skills wise. I use an all steel model and not an Airweight for these gun games.

 

[Candiru]

I'm interested in purchasing a .22LR revolver to improve my accuracy with the snubby. Would those who have gone down that path recommend a larger (e.g. K or L frame) revolver, or would another J-frame be more conducive to developing skill?

 

[nelson133]

There's so much good advice here all I can do is back it up. Practice, practice, practice, learn to reload, .38 special is a cheap reload. I'm not against those who use a .22 for practice, I just prefer to practice with the gun(s) I carry.
I ended up using an SP101 for daily carry as it is the most comfortable snubbie for me to shoot, well except for the Dan Wesson with the 1-7/8 barrel, but that has concealment issues. I have tried the S&W and Taurus lightweights and they carry nice, but I hate to shoot them, they are touchy in .38 Special. I can handle the 125 grain .357 load in the SP101, especially since I had it ported.
If you get a Ruger, plan on lots of dry firing as it takes alot of it to get that trigger smoothed out.
Also, as said above, it is absolutely pointless and counter productive to shoot an sd snubbie single action. If you need it for it's intended purpose, single action training could get you killed. A fact about high stress sd situations is that thought goes out the window and instincts and training take over. You will do what you have practiced. If you practice single action that's what you will do, no matter what you believe you'll do. I don't see the purpose of a hammed spur on any snubbie I'd carry.

 

[Preacherman]

Candiru, I'd suggest the S&W 317, if you can find a used one at a halfway reasonable price (they're not cheap . . . ). An alternative is one of the older, discontinued J-frame .22's. The reason I suggest a J-frame .22 is that you specifically said that this gun would be for improving your accuracy with the snubby. In that case, the similar size, sights, etc. of the 317 will translate directly to your carry gun. If you wanted an all-round fun .22 for target practice, plinking, etc., then a larger one would be fine.

(Hint: the mainspring on the 317 is VERY heavy, probably to ensure ignition with sometimes 'iffy' .22LR rounds. I replaced mine with a standard J-frame mainspring, with no negative effects on ignition. This makes the trigger much more manageable!)

 

[jonsidneyb]

I think everyone should learn how to shoot a snub well. Not just within the ranges one is used. Not for practical reason of using that gun itself but for your use with other guns.

I think the process of learning how to hit targets in DA with a very short sight radius brings out many of the basics in shooting. I think if you can learn to do a fair job of shooting the 2 inch gun it will make you better with all gun.

When I see someone knocking over 50 percent of the cans they are shooting at with a small gun. I always have this feeling that if you stick a full sized gun in their hands they will be close to 100 percent.

I do carry a snub but try to carry a larger companion with it. Learning to shoot a snub has made me a better shot with all of my handguns.

 

[Glamdring]

GRIZ22: Why won't 15-20 rounds thru a jframe once or twice a week plus two-three dryfire workouts a week not work?

That is more than most LEO practice with their duty guns, since most don't do any dryfire AFAIK.

Bad practice is worse than no practice IMO. Keeping round count low per trip in the harder kicking guns allows for BETTER practice.

You can always shoot easier guns after that also, I usually shoot 1911 (10mm) or N Frame (44) after the jframe.