So 7.62x39mm isn't a rifle round?

[MAKOwner]

Here's the text of the law:

B) The term ''armor piercing ammunition'' means -
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence
of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
projectile.
(C) The term ''armor piercing ammunition'' does not include
shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game
regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed
for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds
is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any
other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a
charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

.223 and 30/06 etc steel core gets around it by being specifically exempted per the last paragraph there. Obviously evil communist ammo could never be for sporting purposes.



I don't agree with the mentality that Olyarms did nothing wrong. Yeah they made a product, a niche product that they absolutely knew making would have ramifications on the importation of a very popular type of ammo. Yeah, the law is stupid, but it's still the law and was pretty plain. OlyArms most certainly did screw us with that, however steel core 7.62x39's fate may have already been sealed with some other low production pistols, Oly sure didn't help though...

Coincidentally this very situation may be playing out again. There are rumors of alot of surplus steel core 5.45x39 ammo that is in the process of being imported or could be imported in the future (Bulgaria and similar ex-combloc countries are in the process of converting to 5.56 to coincide with NATO I believe, that's alot of 5.45 ready to flood the surplus market). However with the sunset of the AWB there is a lot of interest in 5.45 pistols here in the states. All it would take is a high profile maker to pop up offering a 5.45 pistol and that ammo is gone before it even gets here. Steel core 5.45 ammo is supposed to perform better than the lead core stuff we get, I'd at least like the option, heck we're very limited in 5.45 choices as of now. Plus there's some room for it to drive down the 5.45 ammo costs...

 

[Gewehr98]

It wouldn't take much to see that happen...

All it would take is a high profile maker to pop up offering a 5.45 pistol and that ammo is gone before it even gets here.

One of those AK pistols in 5.45...

 

[ID_shooting]

Quote:
Quote:
"Per an early-1994 BATF administrative ruling (based on the Oly Arms fiasco), 7.62x39, .223, and .308 are considered "handgun rounds" for the purpose of the 1986 "cop-killer bullet" law, which outlaws "handgun rounds" that have more than a certain percentage of steel, hard copper alloys, tungsten, etc."

Link?

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIL3.html

"FAQ Maintainer: Note that that this article is strictly the opinion of Dean Speir, and does not necessarily represent my opinion. Olympic Arms has been given the chance to rebut and has thus far chosen not to.]"

How about an ATF link?

Not being combative, 7.62x39 steel core is bought all over the place and I question the factualness of this thread.

 

[cordex]

How about an ATF link?

Not being combative, 7.62x39 steel core is bought all over the place and I question the factualness of this thread.

ID Shooting,
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm

List of Armor Piercing Ammunition

KTW AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a green coating on the projectile)

ARCANE AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a pointed bronze or brass projectile)

THV AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a brass or bronze projectile and having a headstamp containing the letters SFM and THV)

CZECHOSLOVAKIAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) ammunition having an iron or steel core. (Identified by a cupronickel jacket and headstamp containing a triangle, star and dates 49, 50, 51, or 52. The bullet is attracted to a magnet)

GERMAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) having an iron or steel bullet core. (Original packaging is marked Pisolenpatronen 08 m.E. May have black colored bullet. This bullet is attracted to a magnet)

MSC AMMUNITION, Caliber .25. (Identified by a hollow point brass bullet. NOTE: MSC ammunition Caliber .25 identified by a hollow point copper bullet is not armor piercing)

BLACK STEEL ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

BLACK STEEL METAL PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)

7.62mm NATO SLAP (identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge)

PMC ULTRAMAG .38 Special caliber, constructed entirely of a brass type material, and plastic pusher disc located at the base of the projectile. NOTE: PMC ULTRAMAG 38J late production made of copper with lead alloy projectile is not armor piercing.

OMNISHOCK, a .38 Special cartridge with a lead bullet containing a mild steel core with a flattened head resembling a wad cutter. (NOTE: OMNISHOCK cartridges having a bullet with an aluminum core are not armor piercing.)

7.62x39mm with steel core. (NOTE: these projectiles have a steel core. Projectiles having a lead core with steel jacket or steel case are not armor piercing)

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION:

5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.

 

[Gewehr98]

Oly Arms screwed the pooch, royally.

Badger, you can certainly build a pistol in your back yard that chambers AP .50 BMG, no problem there. But if you build several prototypes, publish glossy sales brochures with a price list, and display one at the SHOT show for the purpose of generating commercial sales, then you have a problem, because your actions just reclassified the .50 BMG as pistol ammo. Especially after others in the firearms industry warned you that by doing so you'd eliminate an entire class of cheap surplus ammunition, based on an existing law. That's hardly a responsible manufacturer's position, it's defiance of the law, expecting that it won't be enforced because of a few 7.62x39 Contenders and maybe an XP-100 here or there. The fact that the ATF didn't go after the latter is indeed a mystery.

Commercial gun makers are supposed to know what the law says, so they don't run afoul by having rifle barrels shorter than 16", or incorporating "da switch", etc. As an FFL holder, I'm always digging through my stacks of ATF-provided books making sure I understand the nuances, with sometimes limited success. Problem was, this was by no means a gray area, see the legal definitions as posted above by others. It was a Bad Thing® waiting to happen, and Oly Arms chose to pursue it, against better advice. That shows a lack of judgement, if it was defiance on Oly Arms' part it was of a variety seen here, admirable but hardly in line with choosing one's battles carefully:



ID-Shooting, I'd hardly call Dean Speir or Neal Knox novices when it comes to their knowledge of the inner workings of the firearms industry. I could only hope to retain as much as they've already probably forgotten.

BTW, I'm curious, when was the last time you bought a fresh batch of readily-available steel-core 7.62x39?

 

[Badger Arms]

While I don't see the advantage of steel core I'll allow that there shouldn't be a regulation against it. By the letter of the law, the 5.45 ammo in steel core (if it comes up for import) would certainly be prohibited based on the following:

Yes, it's a post ban (not no-ban) AK-74 pistol built to come under the 50oz limit and it shoots, you guessed it, 5.45 ammo. So, since a SINGLE pistol exists which can shoot the ammo, you can't have steel cored ammo at all for this caliber.

After some research, my initial thoughts were right. It was B-West indeed who was making 7.62x39 Pistols and selling them a while before the OlyArms fiasco. See the photo and link below:

http://www.thegunzone.com/762x39.html
http://www.thegunzone.com/bwest.html

Given all of this, it SHOULD HAVE BEEN B-West/MARS who took the blame for this. It was my understanding at the time that there must have been other Pistols out there. I was a customer of B-West and also having built and sold a few of the B-West guns as a private citizen... in 1992! So BLAME ME if you will, but you don't, you still blame OlyArms. Facts are funny, they have a way of putting the absurdity of the blame game in a new light. The FACTS are that 7.62x39 pistols existed BEFORE OlyArms built their prototype, before OlyArms marketed their prototype, and before any of the OlyArms guns were MADE. In fact, there were 200 of the MARS guns on the market, there was mine, and who knows how many more Contender pistols 'out there.' To be correct in our indictment, know that none of the OlyArms guns had made it to Market.

So what everybody is saying here is that B-West, MARS, and Rocky Mountain Arms deserve none of the 'blame' and yet Olympic Arms who didn't sell any of their pistols... only 'marketed' them deserves a boycot? What BATF Did was single out OlyArms because they had production capacity, patents, and were intending to build the guns but the actual spark, if you will, should have been the 200 MARS guns that left the factory factory before the SHOT show. Hmmmm. Really makes you go HMMMM, doesn't it?

So, facts are:

1) The OA-93 in 7.62x39 was never sold commercially and the single sample that left the factory for a writer to examine was returned.
2) Rocky Mountain Arms also brought a 7.62x39 pistol to the Same Shot Show and NEVER produced it after being warned of the consequences (just like OlyArms did).
3) The MARS pistol produced on a B-West receiver was in full production prior to the first prototype OA-93 being built.
4) The Thompson Center Contender had been produced with 7.62x39 barrels for years prior.

So, why punish Olympic Arms?

 

[Badger Arms]

BTW, I'm curious, when was the last time you bought a fresh batch of readily-available steel-core 7.62x39?

That would be 1992ish. Bought it from a friend of mine who was buying pallets of the stuff at that time. Can't remember the exact price, but 75-round drums were running in the low $20's at the time too. When they banned it, I kept a few boxes thinking it might be worth something some day.

 

[Gewehr98]

Badger, my question was directed towards ID_Shooting...

Who mentioned this:

Not being combative, 7.62x39 steel core is bought all over the place and I question the factualness of this thread.

And as you and I know, there hasn't been any freshly-imported 7.62x39 steel core since it was banned. Hence my asking.

I don't disagree that B-West was equally guilty. For some reason they slipped under the ATF's radar, much like that 5.45 AK pistol picture you so nicely provided to the internet (Agent Schmuckatelli, *please* don't read this thread). Oly Arms, however, pushed it, even after they were told it was bad juju. I don't know, maybe they thought they could find the weak spot in the big bad ATF's armor and slay them with one little anti-bureaucratic arrow. Maybe they were trying to give Winchester, Remington, and Federal a leg up on commercial 7.62x39 ammo sales. Maybe they saw the B-West guns slip under the ATF radar and thought they could do the same thing. (Kinda like running a red light, it ain't illegal 'til you're caught?) Maybe they knew there was a ready market for the pistols, so they were willing to take a chance. Somehow, they rubbed the ATF folks wrong with that OA-93.

Regardless, they lost at the ATF's card table, with the dealer holding a solid 21. I'll wager that Oly Arms will probably check into the rules before trying something like that again.

Now it's no great deal, if you think about it. The AWB has expired, along with the 50 oz. pistol weight limit, etc. Steel-core 7.62x39 is still banned, but there's plenty of lead-core 7.62x39 to go around and feed the new crop of post-sunset AK pistols now popping up out there. Not only that, but the SS109 and M855 5.56mm NATO/.223 Remigton has been exempted from the AP rules, so an AK pistol in that chambering is probably due out any day.

 

[Badger Arms]

Maybe they saw the B-West guns slip under the ATF radar and thought they could do the same thing. (Kinda like running a red light, it ain't illegal 'til you're caught?) Maybe they knew there was a ready market for the pistols, so they were willing to take a chance. Somehow, they rubbed the ATF folks wrong with that OA-93.

Of course it should be restated that OlyArms was in no way violating the law in what they did, what is at issue is whether or not the practice of marketing a 7.62x39 pistol in a rabidly anti-gun environment when the ramifications of such marketing were well known, to wit: that the manufacture of such pistol would cause a reclassification of 7.62x39 ammunition to Pistol thereby bringing under the auspice of the "Cop Killer" bullet ban. Now, the cat had already been let out of the bag and had been running feral for months before OlyArms completed any pistols. In fact, the BATF monkey-stomped B-West for making receivers off-site and then intimidated OlyArms and Rocky Mountain Arms into not selling their pistols. Then the BATF cited OlyArms as their reason for banning the Ammo. Looks to me like OlyArms was singled-out unfairly. Remember, to the BATF, all three of these companies was 'evil' just by nature of the products they dealt in.

 

[c_yeager]

Yes, by all means it is all Oly's fault. While we are at it let's boycott Colt for bringing out the AR15, without that there would never have been an AWB. And jeez we really need to find out who brought in all those SKS rifles and got us stuck with all these 922 rules. And oh god don't get me started on Ingrahm (thankYOU for 1986).

One thing is for sure NONE of this is the fault of elected LAWMAKERS or the people who elected them.

:banghead:

 

[ID_shooting]

cordex,

Cool, thank you.

Well, um, I guess I better goto the range today...

 

[Master Blaster]

Blaming the gun manufacturers for our idiotic government regulations is like, blaming a pretty girl for getting raped.