So - After the Shooting Stops - THEN What?

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

For some time now, several friends of mine and I have engaged in conversations about what happens AFTER a (supposedly righteous) shoot.

So much time is spent in defensive training, practice and competitive events focusing almost exclusively on the "HOW-TO" aspects: i.e. situational awareness, tactical movement, sight picture, slicing the pie, clearing rooms and stairwelss, shooting from cover, etc.'. and various drills -- all pointing towards the practical aspects of before and during the shoot.

This thread is to compare notes on what we all think should happen next in the way of "handling the situation", particularly if the Perpetrator is now lying dead in a pool of blood and potential witness are scurrying away from the scene.

So...from your own perspective....what exactly should be done and in what order? Do you think you should call 911 yourself or do you have someone else do it? What should be done with the Bad Guy's gun? Do you collect the names of people who were there as potential witnesses? When the police arrive and prone you out and place you in custody, what should you say, if anything? I'm curious as to how YOU have thought this sequence through.

P.S. Next month's issue of 'Concealed Carry' magazine will have a detailed article on this subject. In the meantime, let's hear your thoughts, suggestions and ideas on this subject.

 

[Bob F.]

Call 911, call your attorney, immediately!!! I carry my attorney's card right behind my CHL. Very knowledgable but hisfirm handles mostly personal injury stuff, but it's a start with no "retainer". Hopefully, I'll never find out if that's a good choice!

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Reload.

 

[Plumber576]

I will tell you what I was told by my CHL class instuctor...

Call the police, call your attorney. When the police arrive...follow everytyhing they say. Do not give your statement yet, but ask to be taken to the hospital and to speak to your lawyer. Say that you were in a shootout and that you need to be checked that you are ok. Say that you want to consult your lawyer before giving any statement.

That's it. Get checked out, talk to you lawyer, then speak to the police.

 

[Henry Bowman]

You have identified what our El Tejon has labeled "Problem #2."

 

[TarpleyG]

Reload, reholster, dial 911, hang up, dial lawyer and get advice before po-po shows up, follow po-po instructions, and do not volunteer any more information that necessary and if you can get by with the following statement, do so:

"Officer, I will be happy to cooperate in the investigation and answer any questions you may have in the presence of my attorney."

Greg

 

[ralphie98]

It is your duty, even though the possibly dead guy is scum, to make sure he gets some form of aid, either from you or a medic. Call 911, tell them you need police and ambulance at that location and don't stay on the line with them. Don't want to say anything to the 911 operator that can be used against you. As others have said, holster the gun so that when police show up you don't end up dead also. If the guy is dead, don't touch him or his gun. If he is alive, you may want to get the gun out of his reach and try some first aid yourself, but I guess that is up to you. If you do move the gun at all, make sure you tell the police you did so and why. I would imagine that it would look good for you in court if you tried to help.

When the police show up, be cooperative but don't talk. Anything beyond stating that "He attacked me" should be done with your lawyer present. My carry instructor teaches the line "I want to speak with my lawyer, and I do not consent to any search". Any questions that they may ask you, that is the answer to give.

 

[CAS700850]

1. Call 911, and make a statement that the bad guy was trying to kill you and that you defended yourself. Tell the operator you are armed, so that responding units will know. All of this will be recorded, and may very well be admissible as evidence later, should that be necessary.

2. Do not move or tamper with the evidence any more than necessary to stay safe. At most, kick the bad guy's weapon away from his reach. Tell the operator that you have done this, and also tell the responding officers you did so.

3. When responding units arrive, try to have your weapon holstered, hands in sight, and don't make any sudden moves. Don't worry about displaying your license immediately. That issue will be cleared up along the way.

4. Cooperate with the responding officers without hesitation or argument. They may want to handcuff you while they secure the scene. Let them. They may order you down on the ground. Get on the ground. Tell them you are armed, where the weapon is on your person, and that it is loaded.

5. If you believe at all you need medical attention, ask for it. If, like me, you have blood pressure issues, ask for a medic. Trust me, the officers will call for one. They don't want to be sued for denying you medical attention.

6. The officers will certainly ask you what happened. They may or may not advise you of your Miranda rights at that moment, as you may or may not be "in custody" for Miranda purposes. Here's where the situation gets really tricky for lawyers, much less people in the situation. The most common advice is to remain silent until you talk with an attorney. There is nothing wrong with this advice. You're going to be shaken up, very upset, very emotional. Silence at this point may keep you from saying something stupid that could hurt you later, in either a criminal or civil suit. On the other hand, cooperation with law enforcement from the start is also not bad advice. One way or the other, DO NOT LIE TO THE OFFICERS ABOUT ANYTHING. It is better to say nothing than it is to lie about anything.

7. The officers may want to test you for alcohol and/or drugs. Maybe a breath test or a urine sample. This is another tough call. On one hand, the standard advice will be to wait for your attorney. On the other hand, assuming you've not had any drugs or alcohol, you will want to preserve taht evidence, and the best way to do so is to allow officers to conduct the test. I suggest talking with your attorney about it now, rather than make a decision on the fly.

8. The officers, especially the detectives, may give you the whole "I undertsand you want to wait for your attorney before we talk about the shooting, but can we get some of the basic stuff out of the way?" This may be thr truth, or it may be a ploy to get you to start talking. Another tough call. But remember this, you may invoke your right to remain silent at any point. So, if you decide to answer some questions, go ahead, but when you feel uncomfortable, etc., you can stop the questioning and/or renew your request for your attorney.

9. When the attorney gets there, the officers will likely allow you to speak with the attorney in private. Do so, and speak freely with the attorney. The attorney cannot give good advice without knowing what happened. Listen to the attorney's advice, but also remember that in the end, it is your bacon on the line, and the attorney is going home no matter what the outcome of the case is. So, if you get bad advice ("Tell the cops he shot first, don't worry about witnesses or the evidence.") do not follow it.

10. Know a lawyer pebfore this night. Sitting in an interrogation room is not the best time to get to know your lawyer. How can you know whether or not to trust the advice if you don't know the source at all. Start looking for a lawyer now, not at midnight after you've been in a fight for your life.

11. Discuss with your attorney the option of requesting to testify about the matter before the grand jury. Yes, it is walking into the lion's den, in a way, because you will be answering the questions of the prosecutor without your attorney sitting there protecting you. On the other hand, it will allow you to get your story out to the very people who will be deciding if you get indicted. You will be able to speak, in your own words, about what happened, and not be relying on the honor and integrity of the prosecutor to present your side of the story.

I'm sure I'll think of more advice as I go, and I'll add as I think of it. ANd, remember, I'm advising from a prosecutor's perspective. I'm sure the criminal defense attorneys among us wiull have other useful tips, and probably criticism of my advice, to add for your consideration.

 

[Onmilo]

1. assure the target is no longer capable of reacting in a violent manner.

2. call 911 and request an ambulance first, then request the Police.
explain what happened and describe yourself and what you are wearing to the dispatcher so the responding officers don't immediately shoot you for being armed and disrupting their otherwise quite sunday third shift.

3. Call your Attorney, you do know and maintain friendly relations with a very good attorney, don't you??

4. Shut up, follow the officers instructions to the letter, shut up, do not talk to anyone until your attorney is present.

5. If you are lucky, the whole thing will be settled for less than $10,000 and you won't be going to jail.
If you are really lucky you will get your firearm back.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Be Focused, Gather What's Needed Later

Some other ideas:

* Your actions may be judged by 12 people in a lighted, protected and safe courtroom environment a year later, so keep your wits about you when talking to 9-1-1 (your call is being recorded);

* A defensive shooting is not done to Kill. It is done to STOP an attack.
Remember that little mantra for your discussions with Investigators.

* Witnesses can help. Identify what they look like and where they are (and if necessary) what their license plates are as they depart the scene.

* If you have given a loud verbal command prior to launching rounds, it may be that the witnesses will remember hearing such a command ("Stop, Stop or I'll shoot if I have to!", etc.) just before gunfire erupted.

* Expect the police to treat you as a 'suspect' until they sort things out. You will be proned out, handcuffed, searched, etc. Remember they are just following protocol. They don't yet know (at that point) that you defended yourself.

* If you can make the first call in to 9-1-1, that' s good. Remembering that your call is being recorded, collect your wits about you before you call in.

* See next month's "Concealed Carry" magazine for some very practical tips.
http://www.concealedcarrymag.com

 

[centac]

You may want to look up some of the Calibre Press Street Survival works. They are written for LE and getting pretty dated, but the same principles apply.

 

[mikep99]

This is really scary to think about. I think "man I am going to carry a weapon to protect myself just in case something happens". Something does happen and I did this to protect my life and or someone elses. I have to now worry about going to jail!?!?! this freaks me out. I just purchased my first handgun and after reading this I am considering not evern owning one and selling mine. It's ridiculous how our society can work to screw innocent and responsible people. I don't take my "right" as a joke, I take it responsibly. Why have to worry about pulling the trigger? If I am trained and know when I have to touch the weapon to defend myself I should not have to worry about anything that can happen after.

This all gets me worried. I don't have an attorney and I don't know where to begin (funny I work at a law firm).

Just giving in my 0.02 cents

 

[Ol' Badger]

You forgot to add......

Do a jig that you are still alive (Before the cops come). I'm thinking something like in " The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" when the old guy finds the gold!

 

[CAS700850]

mikep99,

In a way, I'm glad this scares you, because that will make you think about the possibilities now, rather than after the gunsmoke has cleared, you're standing there with your gun in hand, thinking only "*** now?"

THe reason for these concerns, and this entire thread, and for that matter this entire lines of discussions, is that to the cop arriving at the scene of a shooting outside of your home, you may be the bad guy. For all the cop knows, you're the one still moving, with a gun available. Cop wants to go home at the end of his or her shift, so you'll be the one cuffed, searched, and treated like a suspect.

Also remember, it is a crime to shoot and/or kill someone. Until the facts are brought out showing that your actions were justified, you are a suspect in that crime. The initial facts will show that you are not just the suspect, you're the perp. Only after all is said and done will you (hopefully) be seen as justified in your actions, and if all goes will, a "no bill" will be handed down by the Grand Jury.

Keep thinking this all the way through, and make your decisions accordingly.

 

[Double Maduro]

CAS700850,

11. Discuss with your attorney the option of requesting to testify about the matter before the grand jury.

I served on a Grand Jury in Multnomah County, (Portland) Oregon.

You will also be questioned by the Grand Jury members. The panel I was on included 2 of us with concealed pistol licenses, 2 who had never touched a gun, and the rest were somewhere in between.

There were no accused who showed up, it would have been refreshing to hear their side of the story. After serving on a Grand Jury, I think I would argue with my attorney to allow me to testify.

I agree that it is better to say nothing than to lie.

I think Mas Ayoob, just did an article on this subject in, probably COMBAT HANDGUNS. His main points were;

Don't make a statement until you talk to your attorney or at least have time to calm down.

Don't lie.

Don't tamper with evidence. For instance, if you shoot a bg outside your house, DO NOT drag the body inside, they will know.

DO NOT look around and on seeing no witnesses, leave the scene. Assume that there will be witnesses, if not "eye", at least "ear" witnesses. If you flee you are sure to look more guilty.

If you don't have a cell phone, Yell for someone to call the police and ambulance. The ear witnesses will be able to testify to this later.

Here is hoping that none of us ever needs this advice.
Here is hoping that if we do, all of the innocent are safe and unharmed.

DM

 

[mikep99]

Like I said before this is something that scares me and scares many others. I am studying undergrad right now but I plan to go to law school. One of the fiels of law the interests me are the attorneys that pertain to this "self-defense" section of the law. I am fascinated and totally supportive of these attorneys. I would love to base my career in defending those who did not wrong and were exercising their 2nd amendment by carrying their weapon and using it to defend themselves to prevent death and/or great bodily harm.

 

[ckyllo]

is the "prepaid legal service" worth while or are you better off just saving that money for a retainer to have with a regular lawyer? would they even touch a self defense case?

from the time you call 911 and when you are with the police squad car/station the odds are that you are being recorded. call 911 request medics and police give your location and after they have confirmed address hang up. 911 tapes end up in court rooms on a regular basis. request your lawyer and keep your mouth shut till he/she arrives. no matter how they bait you or tricks that are played keep mouth shut. make sure that your lawyer gives the ok before answering any question before you speak. it may cost you $10,000 or more but it does beat being dead!

 

[El Tejon]

Henry, well, actually I got Problem #2 from Uncle Jeff in "To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth" when it came out in, what '89? However, I do refer to it as contrary to the advice one receives in the gun shoppe there just may be criminal, civil and administrative consequences to one hurting a fellow human being.

I concur with CAS. However, I stress the following: shutting up, shut up and then shut up some more. Stress makes people talk. Last Monday we did some full contact sparring in martial arts (full gear, only a few 3 minute rounds). Because of the added boost of chemicals, they all talked like wind-up dolls. It will be much worse than sparring, shut up.

mikep99, I appreciate the support. I am so used to being kicked in the teeth all day that it comes as some surprise. If that is what you wish, understand it's cost. Not everyone may defend to his utmost will be innocent; those who do violence to others are not well liked and this hatred will transfer to you; you will see a layer of society that you may want to pretend does not exist; have a strong stomach and a strong sense of humor so that you laugh not cry,and above all--join a real estate law firm.

 

[mikep99]

Join a real-estate firm? Lol i have my own real estate business (small, but exists).

I am still thinking about what to do.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

...Something does happen and I did this to protect my life and or someone elses. I have to now worry about going to jail!?!?! this freaks me out. I just purchased my first handgun and after reading this I am considering not even owning one and selling mine.

That's okay. You won't draw unless you perceive a risk; you won't shoot unless a life is in danger -- probably yours!

If you don't have the gun you may end up with no wories at all. Dead men rarely get charged.

Once you decide you can trust yourself to use good judgement, if you ever do need to shoot, you will be grateful to be alive through the coming ordeal.

Oh, and...

Also remember, it is a crime to shoot and/or kill someone.

Isn't that a simplification? As I understand it, it's a crime to, without sufficient legal justification, shoot and/or kill someone.

 

[thatguy]

I am the victim. I feared for my life.

Most lawyers suck at defensive shooting defenses. Will often advise to cop to lesser charge or tell you to claim it was an accident. Rather rely on myself unless actually charged. Don't go into details, just repeat I am the victim of a crime and I defended myself because I feared for my life.

Bear in mind the overwhelming odds are that the guy you popped is a real scumbag who is well known to the cops. You really won't need to offer much defense as long as you and your gun are legal. The facts will speak for themselves so you won't have to (so don't).

 

[Joey2]

On your property and no outside the family witnesses, the three S's come to mind.

 

[mikep99]

I am curious to know if I am with my girlfriend walking down the beach and all of the sudden 10 guys show up. They don't have any kind of weapon but their big gang and hands. I am out numbered and I fear for my girlfriend (getting raped) and/or my life. I can't shoot them right?

 

[unixguy]

Sure you can shoot them, if you have something to shoot them with. Oh, you mean shoot them LEGALLY.

Based on just what you've posted, I'd say no. You haven't said why you feel threatened, other than that you're outnumbered and they're big guys. If they've made threatening comments or gestures, then you're more likely to be able to explain why you felt threatened.

Ability (you explained this one- they're bigger than you and you're outnumbered)
Opportunity (Are they close enough to you do actually do something, or are they 100 feet away and just yelling stuff?)
Jeopardy (Would the average person in the same circumstances feel like they were in jeopardy in the same circumstances?)

 

[Pilgrim]

When is it appropriate to ask for the head to take to the taxidermist?

Pilgrim