So AR15s suck.....so why........

[Rockstar]

I just don't get a couple of things said in this thread: "early M-4 in Somalia?" What the heck was "early" about the M-4's in Somalia? As anybody who remembers what happened in Somalia knows, the type of bullets used, not the platform from which the bullets were launched, was the problem.

"Fragment at range?" Unbelievable!

 

[KaceCoyote]

The AR isnt unreliable, however the rifle which it is commonly compared to is so amazingly, unstoppably reliable that the AR's reliability pales in comparison.

I like my AK, but I've got nothing against the AR. My dislike centers around the small bore round it champers.

 

[Coronach]

Yes we still use M16s and yes- they are most definately up to the job of hitting targets at range. in fact- ballistically speaking IIRC, they do their most damage at range since the bullet has more time to fragment.

You need to reread whatever source material gave you that tidbit about 5.56's terminal ballistics. That, or find another source.

Fragmentation happens once the bullet strikes something, and only happens reliably above a certain velocity. This is why the longered barrelled ARs are "better" with ball ammo: the bullet stays above the limit at which fragmentation occurs for longer. This means it will fragment upon striking targets further away than bullets fired from a short barrelled AR.

Mike

 

[voilsb]

Since there seems to be some misinformation about terminal ballistics in this thread, may I remind people that www.ammo-oracle.com still has very good information about this.

 

[Rockstar]

By "fragmentation", one generally is speaking of the bullets' breaking @ the cannelure when striking certain media @ 2700 fps or greater. Such breaks don't always happen, nor are they necessary for large, devastating, terminal wounds. One of the characteristics of the .223 bullet is that it yaws easily when striking media as dense as flesh. There's an excellent high-speed photo somewhere (it's on a German website) of a .223 bullet's tumbling as it passes through an orange.

Don't make the mistake of operating under the illusion that a break at the cannelure is required for the .223 bullet to be devastating, as you'd be doing yourself a disservice.

 

[Kalashnikov]

MY main problem with the AR platform is the ammunition. Terminal ballistics aside, I personally feel that the round is not sufficantly(sp) lethal. Part of the reason, is the we are limited to FMJ ammo in the U.S. military, but I still feel something in a larger caliber would do everything the 5.56 can do and do it better.

 

[Rupestris]

The only thing that sucks about AR's (IMO) is that they are WAY overpriced.

Its a pick-up truck with a Porsche price tag.

 

[Keaner]

I personally have 2 strong dislikes for the M16/M4 platform.

The first is the week ammo. I realize it works well for the military, etc, but when I don't have backup, or an automatic weapon (ie, AR-15*), I want a round that will put down to stay down.

The second strong dislike I have with the platform is its weakness in the stock. I am personally an M1 fan, so take that as a reason: but I want a weapon that works just as good as a club I realize the M1 is too heavy, too long, has too much recoil, not enough ammo capacity ,etc for most, but its godsend reliability, its massive-hard hittin round, and its amazing range make it a great weapon for a medium-long distance military.

* the AR-15 IMHO is a worthless weapon. The main advantage of the M16/M4 is that its an easily controllable automatic weapon that anyone can use. The AR-15 is just a semi-auto .223. If I have to have a semi-auto, there are better choices.

 

[yorec]

something in a larger caliber would do everything the 5.56 can do and do it better.

Except wound - no one's brought up the old wounding theory - it takes two enemies to care for one who has been wounded and lies screaming. Three down with one shot...

On the other hand, if your enemy doesn't care if one of thier buddies lies screaming nearby and presses on to finish you off...

Still - I like my AR better than my FN-FAL, AK, M1 or any other weapon when it comes to scooting about the bush fending off hostiles of unknown capabilities and number. But give me my FN-FAL (or preferably M1 if you'll supply a couple dozen extra mags) with my mags when hunkered down behind a fortress wall with lotsa buddies similarly armed!

Oh yeah - Rupestris, have you priced a new pick up lately!

 

[Rupestris]

Oh yeah - Rupestris, have you priced a new pick up lately!

I knew someone would catch that. Unfortunately, I have.
Just meant that its a mass produced, utility firearm that should be cheaper considering the production/sales numbers.
The market seems flooded with 'em. Dunhams sporting goods is selling them now. Even the small Mom-&-pop gun stores around here have a half dozen in stock.

 

[yorec]

A from that angle I agree wholeheartedly - problem is that the AR's popularity is driving the current demand. So prices will stay high so long as people will continue to pay them. Second problem is that I'll need a dozen MORE ARs before my personal appetite is satiated... Sigh.

 

[jefnvk]

Just meant that its a mass produced, utility firearm that should be cheaper considering the production/sales numbers.

AK's would be just as expensive, if they were made in America.

Just because something is mass produced, doesn't mean that it is cheaper to make.

 

[Master Blaster]

They dont suck.

 

[Kurt]

They would, if they could........imo.

 

[txgho1911]

They are so bad

Several state have baned them in any form. A federal ban was created and that lasted for 10 years. I baught one so I could truthfully brag about it to my senators and Congres critter for Indiana's 7th dist.

 

[sully]

The M16/AR15 weapons system has been in U.S. Military service for over 40 years. I'm sure if it was a bad or unreliable system that it would have been gone. As far as the M4 and bullet performance, the shorter 14.5" barrel puts out lower velocity to the 5.56/.223 caliber ammunition, and when you slow this ammunition down it will penetrate more and not break up or yaw as fast. The break up and yawing of this particular rifle round is what creates trauma, thus less break up means less trauma.

CY6,
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
Chief Instructor
TheDefensiveEdge.com

 

[Essex County]

I like to pride myself as as a pretty objective guy....

I sold one AK yesterday and traded the other one this morning. I have a great deal of respect for the AK platform, but My AR's much more practical for me. I have a Colt H-Bar, a varmint rig and a carbine. The AK simply doesn't shoot with the AR's. We hear much about the AK's ability to withstand neglect but I don't bury my guns in a manure pit fot six months. Even if I did a garden hose would probably get either one going. I'm not going to get into a caliber war ( it leads to nowhere ). The only advantages I can see is inexpensive ammo and a lower initial investment......Essex

 

[jefnvk]

Oh, one moire thing on cost. Besides the foreign AK's, and CIA Cetmes, what other assualt/battle rifles are considerably cheaper? Many of the rest will run into the thousands of dollars, when you can get a bone stock A2 or CAR for the $700-800 mark, and even cheaper if you dig or build.

 

[roo_ster]

I Don't Hate Them, But They Have Shortcomings:

1. Cartridge
The 5.56mm is adequate for most applications, but has little surplus knock-down for when ranges get long or barrels get short.

2. Defecates Where It Eats
The gas system dumps the gas & carbon all over the carrier, bolt, chamber and everything else encased in the upper & lower. This is inherently less robust than the piston/rod system used by other auto rifles. Hence, the AR must get TLC more often and with greater attention to detail than less-sensitive designs. This is no big deal with a sporting rifle or a rifle used in law enforcement.

*****

On the upside, the AR can be accurzed more easily than most other designs and has a nearly unlimited array of customizing doo-dads that can be slapped on it. It is also easier to shoot adequately & can be shot for cheap.

 

[cordex]

What about Israel, who uses theirs in daily combat, why did they abandon the Galil for the M16 family?

Um ... I think they abandoned the Galil because of its weight and (more importantly) the fact they can get M16s for free from Uncle Sugar.

 

[Shane333]

Cordex has a point. The U.S. has an interesting relationship with Israel. We give them some monetary aid, and they are expected to then buy US made defence products with that aid.

At least, that is my understanding of the situation.

Of course, don't forget the aid we give to several of the countries surrounding Israel...like $2 billion/year to Egypt or the millions we give to the Palestinians each year. I just bring that up because in some parts of the world they've forgotten about how much aid we give to Israel's neighbors.

 

[355sigfan]

AR15's don't suck. They are the fighting weapon by which all others are judged. They are the best over all in accuracy, ergonoomics and overall user friendlyness. The caliber is fine if you use good ammo. Its not a 600 yard gun but most situations don't call for that.
Pat

 

[Rupestris]

Oh, one more thing on cost. Besides the foreign AK's, and CIA Cetmes, what other assualt/battle rifles are considerably cheaper? Many of the rest will run into the thousands of dollars, when you can get a bone stock A2 or CAR for the $700-800 mark, and even cheaper if you dig or build.

I wish there were some battle rifles for the Cetme or AK price.
Being one who tends to buy good used firearms I don't mind holding out 'til I find what I want.

A new lever gun will set you back $300 - $500. A used one in excelent shape can be found for roughly half.
A typical handgun will lose 10 - 20% off the top when it comes to resale.
Remington 870's can be had for alot less that NIB if one looks for 'em.
Plenty of other good, popular firearms depreciate considerably.

The AR seems to hold its value to the piont where its better to buy new.

Now, with that said, retained value is a good thing. I'd love to get what I paid for any of my firearms.
Personally, I'd just like to see an entry level AR in the $500 (closer to the price of a Ruger Mini 14) range or more reasonable prices on used ones.
Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way.

 

[Pete45]

"They've long since ironed out those major issues and the M16 is reasonably reliable, but old stigmas die hard."

One of the famous M16 / AR15 stigmas has been the sensitivity of the action to fouling as a result of the gas system setup. Has this issue been dealt with adequately by this point in time? I'm not being sarcastic... I'm actually asking. It is still quite frequently referred to as a negative attribute of the platform. I know the forward assist acts as a safety net of sorts, but what else has been done to solve the problem? I have no experience with ARs so I am curious if the gripe is still valid.

- Pete45

 

[jefnvk]

Pete, I believe that some of the original .223 loadings utilized a different powder than what was specified, stuff they had left over from the 7.62 and .30 ammo runs. That was part of the problem.