So, if a .223 AR is an "assault rifle," and a .308 AR is a "battle rifle"....

[Chris Pinkleton]

.....what the heck is an AR in 6.8SPC? A "combat rifle?"

I hope to have the cash to investiigate this question with some side-by-side comparison one of these days.

 

[PMDW]

Kill Stick.

I would say it is still an "Assault Rifle". The cartridge isn't that much larger.

 

[Brick]

A Fun Rifle.

No really. As long as it maintains the characteristics of an assualt rifle, which was defined by the Germans' Stg44, then it's a SturmGewehr.

 

[hksw]

Overall length of the 6.8 is close to that of 5.56. Energy well short of 7.62. Still would be called 'assault rifle', IMO.

 

[BigG]

Where did we get the term "battle rifle?" That one sure came out of the comic books. The 223 is just as much a battle rifle as anything ever made. It's also an Assault Rifle because it follows the general Sturmgewehr pattern.

 

[Joe Demko]

Good question, BigG. "Battle Rifle" and "Main Battle Rifle" are both terms I've never heard anywhere but on internet discussion boards. The M-16A1 that Uncle issued me was referred to as a rifle or , once in a while, as a weapon.

 

[BigG]

That's what I thought - the errornet produced another term based on 14 year olds playing video games.

 

[theCZ]

It seems to me that a "Battle Rifle" is an elitist term that sounds more honorable, brave, and epic than an "Assault Rifle". Of course, you could say that a "Battle rifle" has certain features that an AR does not, but who is to say that you can't have a rifle that isn't both?

 

[El Tejon]

The 6.8 version is the Melee Rifle!

Darn Errornet.

 

[TODD3465]

Considering what it was designed for Melee would be about right.

 

[El Tejon]

And thus El Tejon brings life to yet another Errornet term.

The Deadly Melee Rifle, truly the focus of eeevil. Maybe we can start a fax campaign and get VPC/Brady Bunch to bleat about the dangers of Melee Rifles.

Banning something that does not exist, like my idea for White Hippo ammo (or plastic guns).

 

[BigG]

Would that make a OCIW, OIC... OIW... one of those a "splatter weapon?" You heard it here first, folks!

 

[Joe Demko]

At the other end of the spectrum, I think we need a "mild disagreement rifle" and, perhaps, a "loud argument rifle."

 

[shoobe01]

I hear of "battle rifle" before there was any internet to speak of. I am sure some digging can discover who coined it, but I recall it being to differentiate the .308s; despite being designed as assault rifles, the final cartridge choice made them generally less handy and completely pointless on full-auto.


In my opinion:
A semi-auto .308 or similar, meaning most M14s, many FAL/L1s and G3s, is a "rifle" to me.

All .223s are only sorta assault rifles to me, in the strictest sense. The .223 is not an abbreviated cartridge, but simply a scaled-down tiny groundhog cartridge. So the AR is a carbine or something.

Any 6.5 or 6.8 is really trying to solve the assault rifle problem so gets that moniker.

 

[Chris Pinkleton]

"Battle Rifle" has been around since at least the mid 80's, if my gun book collection is any guide. E.g.: a quote from Duncan Long's "Assault Pistols,(HAH! -- haven't heard that one in a while) Rifles, and Submachineguns"---"The purist defines a battle rifle as a combat weapon chambered for a full-powered rifle round." (Note this includes bolt action rifles.) This was published in 1986.

Of course, he goes on to say that the assault rifle/battle rifle designation is pretty problematic. Especially since the first assault rifle, the MP44, was also a "maschinen pistole!"

I'd argue that a 6.8SPC AR is closer to a "battle rifle," since the cartridge the 6.8 comes closest to in performance is the 6.5x55 Swede. I've never heard a full length 6.5 Mauser called a carbine!

Also, at least according to the folks at Tactical Forums, the 6.8 performs much more like the .308 than the .223 at 300+yards .

Of course, there is no "right"answer to this question. Our terminology about firearms is used so loosely as to make sure all debate takes place on a field of constantly shifting meanings.

 

[444]

I first heard the term, battle rifle, and assult rifle back in the early 80s in a book written by Chuck Taylor. I don't remember the name of the book, but I still have it somewhere. Basically, he took all the common battle rifles and evaluated them based on his own criteria. He also had a similar book on sub guns and fighting type shotguns. He detailed the drills he fired etc. As I remember it, it was a pretty good book. I don't remember all the rifles he evaluated but I remember there was the HK 91, FN FAL, M14, M1, whatever the Swiss have or had (Sig ? ).
Basically a battle rifle is a rifle that fires a full sized rifle cartridge. It may be select fire or not. I believe it also needs to be a full sized rifle and not a carbine to meet his definition.
An assult rifle fires an intermediate sized cartridge (less than a full bore rifle and bigger than a handgun). According to his definition, an assult rifle must be capable of select fire.
A submachine gun fires a pistol cartridge and obviously must be full auto or select fire.
There were other criteria in these definitions, but these are the main points. Personally, I like having words that have specific meanings. I see nothing wrong with classifying things into various groups. It makes communication easier when there are specific terms to define objects and people know these specific defnitions.

Oh, and back to the original question: An AR15 is not an assult rifle according to Chuck Taylor's definition since it is not select fire. It is simply a rifle or carbine. If you had an M16 in 6.8, it would still be an assult rifle in my opinion since it is not a full bore rifle cartridge.

 

[Chris Pinkleton]

Good categories, 444, and I agree wholeheartedly with your point. Otherwise, threads like this are utterly meaningless.

 

[444]

Well, the problem with these definitions is that the lines become blurred at the edges. As was mentioned, what about the 6.5 Sweede ? I would certainly consider that to be a full sized rifle cartridge (I guess). Then what about the 6.8 ? I am not that familiar with it ? If it is about the same as a 6.5 Sweede then what have we got ?

 

[Feanaro]

I first heard the term, battle rifle, and assult rifle back in the early 80s in a book written by Chuck Taylor. I don't remember the name of the book, but I still have it somewhere.

"Fighting Rifle" is what you are thinking of, perhaps?

That's what I thought - the errornet produced another term based on 14 year olds playing video games.

As a former 14 year old part time video gamer, I am deeply offended.

 

[George S.]

Some folks define a "battle rifle" as a bolt action or semi-auto infantry rifle of .30 caliber or so that was primarily used in the World Wars, Korea and the early part of Vietnam (M-14). Metric calibers used by European countries (and Japan) could include ranges from 6.5mm to 8mm.

IMHO an "assault rifle" is defined by being short-barreled, high-capacity mag fed with the capacity for 20 rounds or more and having full-auto capability. The AK-47 fits that sort of description, but the Browning BAR does not. The M1 Carbine is in sort of a gray area in that it was not really made for "assault" purposes (as I recall it was originally used by support troops for defensive purposes). The cartridge is .30 cal but not a typical rifle cartridge profile in that it was short and not necked down.

 

[Chris Pinkleton]

444---

The 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser runs a 120 grain pill at about 2770 to 2890 fps out of a 22'" barrel, according my Speer manual.


The 6.8 SPC pushes a 115 grainer at about 2700-2800 fps from an 18" barrel, according to this site: http://www.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/6.8SPC/faq.php

Pretty close.


Of course the BC of the 6.5 is going to be better than the 6.8.


And this chart (http://www.65grendel.com./graphics/grendelballistics.pdf) shows the 6.5 Grendel with a 123 grain bullet at 2600 fps.

That chart does make it seem that the 6.8 is closer to 5.56 than 7.62 ballistics --- but it and the 6.5 Grendel are pretty close to the Swede.

Maybe we need a new thread : "what cartridge marks the begining of full-power military rounds?"

Nah, no need for another boring "caliber war."

 

[Delmar]

what the heck is an AR in 6.8SPC

Experimental rifle???

 

[gearbox]

Zombie Rifle

Liberty Rifle

Warmy Fuzzies Rifle

Notquiteathirtycaliber Rifle

Remedial Rifle.

..take your pick.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

My vote for the origin of the term "Battle Rifle...

Gives heavy credit to General Patton, and his assessment of the M-1 Garand:

"The greatest battle implement ever devised."

Implement/rifle-it's all in the context. Substitute the word in the quote, and it fairly sings.

Jus' my humble opinion, 'cuz I like Garands. And they DO make for a fine Battle Rifle.