So Much for Self-Defense - Pentagon: Command Authorization Required to Shoot

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Ironbarr

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Why do our "leaders" always seem to make the same mistakes war after war. Telling troops they have to have (read "wait" for) permission to open fire when threatened seems to me a force subtractor - "Sorry, Sonny... set that thar rifle down now till the good (whomever on high) says you can shoot - meanwhile, take cover."

Yeah, right!

Also - I hi-lighted (the "red" text) some words I hadn't been aware of. If this is true, then it should be useful in several RKBA areas. Any lawyers out there?
.................

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...0,0,7265380.column?coll=orl-opinion-headlines
For instructions on how to lose war, consult flow chart
Published November 30, 2005


While American civilians and politicians debate when and whether to withdraw troops from Iraq, the buzz among some military lawyers has been a recent Pentagon rule change that they say potentially limits service members' ability to defend themselves.

In June, the Pentagon changed its Standing Rules of Engagement to allow commanders to limit individual self-defense by members of their unit. Interpreted for me by two Army judge advocate general officers (JAGs), this essentially means that soldiers and Marines may not have the individual prerogative to fire upon an enemy when they are faced with an imminent threat of death or serious injury. That belongs only to commanders, who may not be present to make a decision every time a soldier or Marine faces a deadly threat.

The impetus behind the rule change likely evolved from concerns that a soldier might misinterpret a danger and kill an innocent instead of a bad actor. But critics say the solution to this ever-present tension is better training, not more restrictive rules.

Commanders and JAGs close to the debate say the rule change poses numerous potential problems and contradicts the guiding principle in all of America's rules of engagement, which is that nothing in these rules limits the inherent right of self-defense. If a soldier or Marine can't make a split-second decision to kill or be killed, even at the risk of making an erroneous judgment, he or she may eventually hesitate, fumble the wrong way, and end up dead.

Not only does this new rule defy common sense and place service people at undue risk, say military lawyers with whom I've spoken, but it could make recruiting difficult. One, in an opinion piece he submitted to the Army Times, wrote:

"If the Army thinks it has a recruiting problem now, wait until the mothers and fathers of prospective recruits learn that the military is trying to give more legal protections to possible al-Qaeda members demonstrating hostile intent than the Fourth Amendment currently gives to criminals in the United States."

His commentary was never published. He asks that I not name him out of concern for possible retribution.

The JAG officers also question whether the regulation can be lawfully implemented, as restricting self-defense potentially contradicts the military Code of Conduct, which states that American fighting forces should not surrender when they have the means to resist. Of potentially greater consequence, they say, is that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that one's work position cannot diminish one's inherent right to self-defense, because it's "inherent."

Soldiers and Marines in theaters like Iraq are already at a disadvantage given that most tactical situations they face require split-second judgments where the enemy already has the initiative and the advantages. By changing the SROE in ways that reduce their ability to respond to imminent danger, they're at an even greater disadvantage. Forget about the deficiencies of armored Humvees and other tactical equipment. If soldiers and Marines can't act quickly when dangers arise, even the best equipment won't save lives.

Just as important as the ability to fire when threatened is a soldier's understanding that his command will stand behind him. To believe otherwise could cause hesitation and indecision, leading to deadly consequences.

The machinations of military bureaucracy have long been a concern to those in the trenches, especially to the soldier-lawyers who must interpret rules hatched in civilian cubicles and apply them to the chaotic instants of war. Witness another bureaucratic gem that has been circulating the past several days -- an "escalation of force" flow chart from the Commander of the Multi-National Coalition-Iraq.

To see this thing is to not believe it. Picture a page loaded to the margins with boxes filled with tiny print and arrows pointing the way through a series of steps from "training" through "use-of-force" to how to disburse "condolence $$" to Iraqi claimants. If a soldier or Marine can find his way through this maze, he should skip Iraq and head straight for Harvard Business School and his new career as dean.

Whatever the theory behind these kinds of directives from on high, the trickle-down effect is hesitancy, concern over command support, and increased confusion on the ground. The potential for an adverse effect on morale goes without saying.

As one Army officer who asked not to be identified put it: "We've got to get some warfighters over there who understand how to actually win, not look for ways to evade responsibility for 'lethal force decisions.' And we've got to get lawyers who don't know what they're doing away from spineless commanders. The combination of the two is lethal for soldiers and for our war effort."

Not everyone agrees that the new rule places limits on self-defense, even though the language seems plain enough. Some believe the rule should be read very narrowly: that such command limitation isn't likely to happen except in rare circumstances.

But where there's disagreement, there's room for doubt, which can be deadly under fire. At the least, the new rule bears close scrutiny if any future interpretation could lead to a soldier or Marine hesitating because he hasn't clearly been told that he has an inherent right to defend himself.

Kathleen Parker can be reached at [email protected] or 407-420-5202.

Copyright © 2005, Orlando Sentinel | Get home delivery - up to 50% off
 
One of the reasons why I avoid military.

Besides the fact that I will get court martialed the second week for insubordination, the problem is that you become governement property and an expendable resource. Even when sent into the threater of battle (!) you can still be charged with murder by the same people who sent you into it. How screwed is that? That doesn't mean they can just spray left and right into civilians, however battlefield is battlefield. Those civilians can turn into combatants within seconds, and "don't shoot until shot upon" is all armchair bull????. The pig at the pentagon is probably sippin on his coffee in a warm leather chair making up policies that put his own people in grave danger.
 
In my more cynical moments during my Army tenure of some 50 years ago, I commented that they take ya when ya don't wanna go. They teach ya to kill when ya don't wanna learn. Then the ARs and SRs drive ya to murder. And then they hang ya for it.

Insofar as real combat is concerned--which I never saw--the guys who'd been there had the saying, "When the shooting ends, the c-s begins." During combat, cold, objective pragmatism controls the individual actions. But, when soldiers start in being forced to be cops, or are on occupation duty in an allegedly pacified area, the c-s rules begin to intrude on reality.

That's fine for the politicians and generals. Rough on the peons.

Art
 
This demonstrates the kind of contempt the civilian authorities have for military personnel. And you can include the brass at the Pentagon as civilian authorities as well, they're just politicians wearing uniforms. If these clowns had been running WWII, we'd be speaking German and singing the Horst Wessel song.
 
did we learn nothing from vietnam where bombing targets had to be personally ok'd?

Ya know they used to do a lot of talk about learning the lessons of Vietnam about letting the military fight the war instead of the politicians. This is just insanity.
 
If you encounter any Boers
You really must not loot 'em!
And if you wish to leave these shores,
For pity's sake, DON'T SHOOT 'EM!!

--"Dutchman's Holiday", Breaker Morant
 
As my old First Sergeant would say-

"Boys, it's time to go. The PX here is selling starch and ironing boards. The fun is over, the Armiee has arrived."
 
Good thing they only print facts in the news. Was CJCSI 3121.01A rewritten? I guess the SROE was thrown out the window.
 
Beyond the obvious I was also hoping for some comments on this jewel:
Of potentially greater consequence, they say, is that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that one's work position cannot diminish one's inherent right to self-defense, because it's "inherent."
Is this SCOTUS ruling real? Where? In what context? How would it apply in 2A matters?

At least one enquiring mind want to know.:confused:

.
 
I don't know about you but if someone is about to shoot me i'll shoot instead of yelling "stop and comply" and if i was the senior officer of someone in the same situation i would downplay this "regulation".
 
It is hilarious that people talk about how we are doing a so much better job of fighting the war than we did in vietnam.... and yet the same political BS that Vietnam is famous for has reared its ugly head again.

Asking permission to shoot at an enemy seems utterly retarded- what did we bother training them for?
 
I'm most interested in that supposed SCOTUS ruling. If a job can't limit one's right to self defense then it could be argued that my job not allowing me to CCW which is lawful for me per the state is limiting my right to self defense. Who wants to be the test case?

And we've got to get lawyers who don't know what they're doing away from spineless commanders. The combination of the two is lethal for soldiers and for our war effort."
-That's the best quote in the article!
 
The military needs to conduct a cleansing jihad against any military lawyer who does not have the CIB. Any lawyer without a CIB should have a choice to make: leave the military or accept permanent assignment to a combat arm and remain in said combat arm until CIB or Purple Heart is awarded, which ever come first. These rules are precisely the same rules that defined terms of engagement in the early days of Vietnam. Americans in firefights holding fire, screaming on the radio for permission to return fire. I think Rambo I had the finale correct.
 
The "Dim-wit-ocrats" are trying the best to make this war another Vietnam

They should be prosecuted for reckless endangerment of our soldiers! Unfortunately, the Re-puke-licans are allowing it.

We have the power to change this. Next election, take a sheet of paper. Do a checking list between now and then. Those politicians who were professional, repsected human dignity and the Constitution and those who were "subhuman". Vote againt the subhuman. That will replace 1/3 of our senators. Two years from now, change 1/3 more, and finally two years after that, change the last one 1/3. Heck, who knows, maybe the last 2/3 will "get-it" and do OUR work and won't need changing. If they don't, then the vote is always our option. Change the Congress the same legal and ethical way!

STOP BEING SHEEPLE! IT IS TIME FOR ETHICAL CHANGE! :fire:

Remember the speak of 10 years back, "Change is good!"

Doc2005
 
I did some searching (probably didn't use the right terms) but, Kathleen Parker seems to be the only person that knows about this change to the SROE. The DOD, CJCS nor CENTCOM have posted anything on these recent changes to the SROE. The closest thing I could find was a transcript on defenselink.mil that stated that clarifications had been made to ROE involving aircraft returning defensive fire.

I know, I'm probably wrong, because they only print true, vetted facts in newspapers.
 
PCF I did a search of CJCSI 3121.01A after your post and reviewed the ROE and it is something that I and certainly our son can live with. I too was unable to verify her story also, so I'm not going off the deep end over this.

Just because I read it on the Internet or a newspaper doesn’t make it true. I'm still waiting for a count on all the holes in the helicopters used in the Katrina rescue that led up to the gun confiscation down there.

This was someones signature line on THR I read once.

REMEMBER THIS: If media can't get it right- on issues about which you are personally well informed, why should you trust them to get it right on issues you have no personal knowledge of?
 
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strambo said:
If a job can't limit one's right to self defense then it could be argued that my job not allowing me to CCW which is lawful for me per the state is limiting my right to self defense. Who wants to be the test case?
Hmmm. The test case will have to be somebody else. I have an "at will" job that I can legally leave any time I disagree with their rules.

Just as they can legally ask me to leave for the same reason.


pcf said:
I did some searching (probably didn't use the right terms) but, Kathleen Parker seems to be the only person that knows about this change to the SROE.
We all need to think about just this sort of thing whenever we read something in the paper or see it on the news. There seem to be very few actual journalists out there these days, and more and more fictional writers. 'Facts (or lack of them) be da##ed. This is supposed to be exciting, emotional stuff. Never worry that people may actually believe, and act on this information.'
-
 
My friends buddy in the army was ORDERED to stop a man speeding away on a motorbike at over 400 yards. He shot the guy in the head and killed him. The LT flipped out and said he wanted the bike shot and not the guy. The shooter was almost charged on all sorts of war crimes stuff apparently. He got off though because he was ordered to do it and the LT was fired. War according to all my military friends, has become to beureucratic.
 
I note with interest that several people who've posted seem to take it as gospel that the Pentagon would change the rules of engagement and the first person to notify military personnel of this change is an Orland Sentinel columnist ...

Out of curiosity, why is everyone so quick to buy into the notion that the military is constantly changing policy in ways it knows will endanger its personnel?
 
For me, because we have a son on the front lines and I am a Vietnam vet and I know the idiocy the pentagon is capable of so I reacted without verifying. But on the other hand pcf’s post motivated me to check it out more closely. As for others, I can’t speak for them.
 
Well, I can speak only from my own experience, which is that when I've been deployed, particularly my last deployment to the Middle East, the chain of command has seemed very responsive to any concerns about safety of our personnel (to the point where sometimes, it seemed as though they were trying to keep us too safe) ... ROE with respect to self-defense has never been an issue, and I can't see even the JAG Corps prosecuting someone for a legitimate self-defense situation.

The media seems to have become very good at portraying current military leadership as not being as concerned for the welfare of the troops as it should be ... But Iraq is not Vietnam, and even the Pentagon has learned a few lessons ...
 
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