So what do you shoot in a modern ML rifle for cheap practice?

[piettakid]

The consensus here seems to be that modern ML rifles have rifling too fast to shoot patched round balls so you have to use the much more expensive bullets. I did some checking around and the cheapest 50 cal bullets i can find are the Hornaday Great Plains solid lead bullets and even they are 65 cents each!! Anything cheaper?

Just how inaccurate are patched balls in modern rifle with a a 1 turn in 28 inch twist? What size groups will you get at 100 yards.?

 

[Armored farmer]

I bought a bag of sabot sleeves one time. The were to fit a 50 cal m/l while using .452 cal handgun bullets.

 

[piettakid]

I bought a bag of sabot sleeves one time. The were to fit a 50 cal m/l while using .452 cal handgun bullets.

Did it work? What kind of accuracy did you get.?

Just did some checking and it appears sabots cost around 20 cents each. That's more than the lead balls.!

 

[alsaqr]

Sabots cost 12-15 cents each. .430 caliber or .452 240 grain XTP bullets cost about 24 cents each.

One of my .50 caliber rifles has a 1/32" twist rate. Using 70 grains of powder it shoots round balls like a laser. Patched rounds and low powder charges may work in a 1/28" twist rifle depending on rifling depth. Start with 50 grains of powder.

My 1/28" twist Encore showed some promise with patched round balls but i never followed up. Another rifle with shallow rifling designed to shoot conicals failed to shoot patched round balls well. 100 .490 round balls cost about $17. You can make your own patches from pillow ticking or drill cloth. Smear Go Jo hand cleaner one side of the patch.

Shooting patched round balls is fun. Killing deer and hogs with same is more fun.

.

 

[piettakid]

One of my .50 caliber rifles has a 1/32" twist rate. Using 70 grains of powder it shoots round balls like a laser. Patched rounds and low powder charges may work in a 1/28" twist rifle depending on rifling depth. Start with 50 grains of powder.

.

That sounds good. I've never owned a BP rifle but am looking hard at a SS CVA wolf with a 1/28 twist. If i have to use reduced loads of 70 grains to get good accuracy with patched balls, that will be ok.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I buy bulk bullets and use cast .45 cal bullets. I use someone else's last's years caps and Prodex. They are afraid it won't fire and the big one will get away....Funny thing is, I have never had to snap on a load twice or pull a bullet from old powder or caps.

 

[Armored farmer]

Did it work? What kind of accuracy did you get.?

Just did some checking and it appears sabots cost around 20 cents each. That's more than the lead balls.!

I shoot traditional rifles only. I bought the sabots for my son. I dont think he ever gave them much of a chance. He also uses pyrodex pellets, the most expensive and corrosive form of powder, and shoots the pointy m/l bullets in his inline.
He takes after his mother.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I use cast bullets in sabots. I also use patched round ball with about 50 gr of goex. If you use a small charge it will work. If you use too much powder you will be lucky to stay on paper.

 

[Snidely70431]

No offense, but a volume equivalent of 70 grains of BP cannot in any historical sense be realistically be considered a light load.

From Wikipedia:
The minimum acceptable accuracy of the .45-70 from the 1873 Springfield was approximately 4 inches (100 mm) at 100 yards (91 m), however, the heavy, slow-moving bullet had a "rainbow" trajectory, the bullet dropping multiple yards (meters) at ranges greater than a few hundred yards (meters). A skilled shooter, firing at known range, could consistently hit targets that were 6 × 6 feet (1.8 m) at 600 yards (550 m)—the army's standard target. It was a skill valuable mainly in mass or volley fire, since accurate aimed fire on a man-sized target was effective only to about 300 yards (270 m).

After the Sandy Hook tests of 1879, a new variation of the .45-70 cartridge was produced: the .45-70-500, which fired a heavier, 500 grain, (32.5 g) bullet. The heavier bullet produced significantly superior ballistics, and could reach ranges of 3,350 yards (3,120 m), which were beyond the maximum range of the .45-70-405. While the effective range of the .45-70 on individual targets was limited to about 1,000 yards (915 m) with either load, the heavier bullet would produce lethal injuries at 3,500 yards (3,200 m). At those ranges, the bullets struck point-first at a roughly 30 degree angle, penetrating three 1-inch (2.5 cm) thick oak boards, and then traveling to a depth of 8 inches (20 cm) into the sand of the Sandy Hook beach. It was hoped the longer range of the .45-70-500 would allow effective volley fire at ranges beyond those normally expected of infantry fire.[5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70

 

[Snidely70431]

I have been working on light Patched Round Ball loads for my CVA Optima Pro Magnum with 1:28 twist and 209 primers, and it seems to shoot PRB's best under 1,000 fps. You might try a starting load of 20 grains (weighed, because small differences in charge can make big differences in velocity at this level) and work up from there.

20 grains of BP may seem small, but the 38 S&W Special was originally a BP round that contained 21 grains of BP, and it was developed to replace the 38 Colt, that took 18 grains of BP.

 

[Snidely70431]

No offense, but a volume equivalent of 70 grains of BP cannot in any historical sense be realistically be considered a light load.

From Wikipedia:
The minimum acceptable accuracy of the .45-70 from the 1873 Springfield was approximately 4 inches (100 mm) at 100 yards (91 m), however, the heavy, slow-moving bullet had a "rainbow" trajectory, the bullet dropping multiple yards (meters) at ranges greater than a few hundred yards (meters). A skilled shooter, firing at known range, could consistently hit targets that were 6 × 6 feet (1.8 m) at 600 yards (550 m)—the army's standard target. It was a skill valuable mainly in mass or volley fire, since accurate aimed fire on a man-sized target was effective only to about 300 yards (270 m).

After the Sandy Hook tests of 1879, a new variation of the .45-70 cartridge was produced: the .45-70-500, which fired a heavier, 500 grain, (32.5 g) bullet. The heavier bullet produced significantly superior ballistics, and could reach ranges of 3,350 yards (3,120 m), which were beyond the maximum range of the .45-70-405. While the effective range of the .45-70 on individual targets was limited to about 1,000 yards (915 m) with either load, the heavier bullet would produce lethal injuries at 3,500 yards (3,200 m). At those ranges, the bullets struck point-first at a roughly 30 degree angle, penetrating three 1-inch (2.5 cm) thick oak boards, and then traveling to a depth of 8 inches (20 cm) into the sand of the Sandy Hook beach. It was hoped the longer range of the .45-70-500 would allow effective volley fire at ranges beyond those normally expected of infantry fire.[5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70

A round that can kill a human at 2 miles can in no way be considered a light load.

 

[PapaG]

You can find maxi ball, maxi hunter, minie ball and REAL moulds in almost any caliber. I have several in .50 as well as 45, 54, and 58, and have gotten fair accuracy in twists as fast as one in thirty eight.
Use scrap lead, pretty soft, lube well and use real black and have fun.
BTW. I have a 100 yard target, three shots with a maxi ball out of my Douglas barreled flintlock and 100 grains of ffg with a three inch c t c spread.

 

[piettakid]

I have been working on light Patched Round Ball loads for my CVA Optima Pro Magnum with 1:28 twist and 209 primers, and it seems to shoot PRB's best under 1,000 fps. You might try a starting load of 20 grains (weighed, because small differences in charge can make big differences in velocity at this level) and work up from there.

20 grains of BP may seem small, but the 38 S&W Special was originally a BP round that contained 21 grains of BP, and it was developed to replace the 38 Colt, that took 18 grains of BP.

20 grains?? Yeah - that seems small. Not much point in developing an accurate load that is too light to actually hunt with.

 

[Snidely70431]

20 grains?? Yeah - that seems small. Not much point in developing an accurate load that is too light to actually hunt with.

The subject matter of the article is cheap practice in a modern ML. Nothing was said about hunting, but a 20 grain load of Tripple 7 with a .490, 176.4 PRB in a CVA Optima Pro Magnum gave a velocity of 1032 fps, 417 fp. Too light for deer, but more than adequate for coyotes or other varmints. This energy is on the order of .45 ACP, 45 Colt, or .44 S&W, and more than most 9mm or 38 Special loadings. This velocity might be too great for best accuracy in a 1:28 twist barrel, though. The RB costs about 12 cents, the Tripple 7 about 6 cents and the 209 primer (CCI) about 4 cents, for a total of about 22 cents.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

About 2000 or so my son and I started shooting muzzleloading rifles in the local black powder cartridge matches (until I could work up some passable .30-30 BP substitute loads).
For practical purposes, Thompson Center .44 240gr plain lead hollowpoint Cheap Shot in .50 sabots were just as accurate as the more expensive jacketed saboted bullets. Rifles were a CVA Bobcat and a Remington ML 700 powder PyrodexRS.
It is a seasonal item (usually on the shelves just before and during ML hunting season); since the BP cartridge matches were March through Oct, I would wait until after ML hunting season when the big box stores started marking down ML items to clear up shelf space for fishing and boating stuff.

 

[Bushpilot]

I shoot a cast 250 gr, 50 cal, Lee REAL bullet out of both my CVA Wolf and my TC Hawken with good results. The scoped Wolf will consistently shoot tight clover-leafs at 50 yards with 70 or 80 grains of triple 7. These can be a little hard to start if your alloy is hard but they shoot well. For an easier- to-load load that still shoots well I shoot a 240 gr, cast .430 Lee SWC that I use in my .44 mags in a sabot that shoots almost as well...

 

[WestKentucky]

45 cal frontstuffer+ patched cheap 45 lead...whatever flavor I can find cheap. I had some Berrys that the gun liked, and if I could find 45cal hbwc I might even try them in it without patch as it should blow the skirt out and seal like a traditional minie (in theory)

 

[whughett]

50 caliber bullet molds can be had for as little as $25, lead can be found in several sources and a simple casting pot of some discarded cast iron cooking pot or skillet and few trail runs and you can throw more bullets than you'd ever shoot up for pennies each. No fancy bottom pour furnace needed. Can't understand why folks would pay the price of lead bullets, FMJ's and other clad bullets yes, lead, I've made them for years and the savings of molds are quickly amortized. of course those that shoot a few dozen rounds a year its probably not worth the time. Molds can be found at a lot of gun shows and properly maintained will last generations, which is why they can be found at gun shows and shops that buy out estates. Excuse this old mans ranting......

 

[Snidely70431]

50 caliber bullet molds can be had for as little as $25, lead can be found in several sources and a simple casting pot of some discarded cast iron cooking pot or skillet and few trail runs and you can throw more bullets than you'd ever shoot up for pennies each. No fancy bottom pour furnace needed. Can't understand why folks would pay the price of lead bullets, FMJ's and other clad bullets yes, lead, I've made them for years and the savings of molds are quickly amortized. of course those that shoot a few dozen rounds a year its probably not worth the time. Molds can be found at a lot of gun shows and properly maintained will last generations, which is why they can be found at gun shows and shops that buy out estates. Excuse this old mans ranting......

Not a rant at all. There are some disadvantages to casting lead bullets, the first being the material. Lead has a reputation of being only slightly less toxic than arsenic. Then too, your cast balls are unlikely to shoot MOA out of the finest barrel, since they will be somewhat out of round and have some sprue still on it. The weights will vary more than the few tenths of a grain that the best commercial balls will. And finally, all that messing around with lead and molds and pouring will rouse some wives' ire, even if you do not burn some essential bits.

All that said, as a guy who survived playing with mercury, riding bikes without a helmet, driving lots of miles without a seat belt and whose eyes cannot SEE 6 minutes-of-angle, much less one, cast bullets are more than good enough. And much more authentic. Craftsman made rifles were sold with a cherry for making molds out of soapstone cut for that particular rifle.

 

[donparadowski]

I shoot a TC Strike, with a Harvester 45 cal. 300 grain PT gold bullet and Harvester crushed rib sabot, propelled by 84.0 grains by weight of Blackhorn 209 muzzleloader powder, ignited by CCI 209 muzzleloader primer. Period. I can reach out 200 yards with tight consistent patterns. Weather I am hunting or on the range. I want the same performance every time. I don’t want to think about what I am shooting…I have plenty of things to think about what I am shooting at. I keep it simple.

 

[rsrocket1]

Any old 45ACP bullet can be put into a 50 cal sabot made for .45 bullets. Be careful, some 50 cal sabots are made for .44 bullets (0.429") so be sure to use the right ones. I use T/C yellow sabots at 10 cents each and put my Lee TL452-230-TC bullets in them. My most accurate loads have been with Blackhorn 209 powder but that stuff is expensive. These are 100 yard groups. Not great, but decent enough for hunting game if that's what I want. For shooting paper it's more than good enough.



At 50 yards they look better



And my first shots ever were at 25 yards, fantastic!




For cheaper shooting, I use Alliant BlackMZ at $10/pound and shoot cast Lee REAL 50 cal 250g bullets lubed with 2:1 Beeswax/Vaseline with a cardboard overpowder card between the base of the bullet and the powder



Here's my zero cost overpowder card production factory



This gives me my muzzleloading fix at the range and gives me so much more appreciation for shooting cartridge ammo.

I also bought a used minie ball mold and have made some ranch dipped versions of that bullet. I havent' found a really accurate load for these yet, but they are fun to cast and shoot and like the REAL bullets, they are cheap to shoot at about 3.5 cents per bullet $1/pound of lead.



Cost per shot is
3.5 cents /bullet @ $1/pound of lead
3 cents /primer
10 cents/70g powder @ $10/pound

= 16.5 cents per shot. More expensive than handgun and a little more expensive than some rifle shooting but a range session of 20 shots is probably going to be plenty.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Sell it and get a hawkins rifle. Can shoot roundies till the day is long, and will smoke everything form deer to coon.

 

[Snidely70431]

Any old 45ACP bullet can be put into a 50 cal sabot made for .45 bullets. Be careful, some 50 cal sabots are made for .44 bullets (0.429") so be sure to use the right ones. I use T/C yellow sabots at 10 cents each and put my Lee TL452-230-TC bullets in them. My most accurate loads have been with Blackhorn 209 powder but that stuff is expensive. These are 100 yard groups. Not great, but decent enough for hunting game if that's what I want. For shooting paper it's more than good enough.

View attachment 791783

At 50 yards they look better

View attachment 791784

And my first shots ever were at 25 yards, fantastic!
View attachment 791785



For cheaper shooting, I use Alliant BlackMZ at $10/pound and shoot cast Lee REAL 50 cal 250g bullets lubed with 2:1 Beeswax/Vaseline with a cardboard overpowder card between the base of the bullet and the powder

View attachment 791786

Here's my zero cost overpowder card production factory

View attachment 791787

This gives me my muzzleloading fix at the range and gives me so much more appreciation for shooting cartridge ammo.

I also bought a used minie ball mold and have made some ranch dipped versions of that bullet. I havent' found a really accurate load for these yet, but they are fun to cast and shoot and like the REAL bullets, they are cheap to shoot at about 3.5 cents per bullet $1/pound of lead.

View attachment 791788

Cost per shot is
3.5 cents /bullet @ $1/pound of lead
3 cents /primer
10 cents/70g powder @ $10/pound

= 16.5 cents per shot. More expensive than handgun and a little more expensive than some rifle shooting but a range session of 20 shots is probably going to be plenty.

This is from Alliant Black MZ loading instructions:
LOADING PRECAUTIONS:
•
Before use, read all instructions, safety precautions and load data available free of charge at
www.alliantpowder.com or by writing to the address on this label.
•
Use only in firearms found by a competent gunsmith to be in good shootable condition.
•
Always follow loads exactly as recommended by Alliant Powder.
•
Use only with equipment designed for use with black powder or black powder substitutes.
•
Do not dispense directly from container to firearm.
•
Be certain no ember is smoldering in barrel before pouring powder.
•
Seat projectile firmly against po
wder charge,as air space between powder charge and
projectile can create a hazardous situation.
•
Use no bullet/bore lubes.
•
Follow all firearms loading and handling instructions provided by the manufacturer

The 'Use no bullet/bore lubes' got my attention.

 

[Snidely70431]

I just posted this in another thread but I think it fits here also.

Just got through firing 5 .490 PRB, weight about 176 grains, out of my Optima Pro Magnum using standard 209 Federal primers and 15 grains of Aliant Black MZ at about 25 feet from a rest with open sights. I got a group that could be covered with a half dollar about an inch above point of aim. I chronographed 2 of the shots and got 754 and 816 fps.

A couple of days ago I chronographed 12.5 grains of Triple 7 out of a Navy Arms Country Boy with a 1:32 twist and got a reading of 944 fps. I replaced the standard #11 nipple with a musket cap nipple and ignition seems to be more reliable and the caps are MUCH easier to put on. Triple 7 seems to be somewhat hotter than Black MZ at reduced loads, but I have not done enough testing to make a definitive statement.

I weigh all loads with a digital scale to within a tenth of a grain; at these load levels volume measurements would be a waste of time.

 

[rsrocket1]

I found you can get reasonable consistency" in volume measurements with the gravel-like kitty litter known as BlackMZ by pouring the powder into a BP powder measure until it heaps above the rim, then scrape the rim off with a credit card or some other card. You can also pre-pour weighed charges in vials used for medical blood samples if you can find those cheap or free.