So whatever happened to the bump stock ban?

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DeepSouth

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I haven’t been around a lot lately, been working entirely to much, but I haven’t heard anything about the purposed ATF rule change on bump stocks. If memory servers the comment period ended towards the end of June, which was roughly four months ago.

Since then I haven’t heard a peep, I mean nothing. I know their has to be a review period to read and respond to the comments, but I’d have thought in 4 months it would have moved to the next steep. Whatever that next step would be.

Anyway, I guess my question is did I miss something or does the process just take that long. Or hopefully, but surely not, they just gave up.
 
Federal dead (for now). State bans have passed in 3 or 4 states including Florida surprisingly.
 
Assuming that’s true, why did it die federally. They were after it hard even with the backing of the President and the NRA, it’s just surprising to me they’d just drop it.
Just seems like it has to some reason beyond their control.
 
Assuming that’s true, why did it die federally. They were after it hard even with the backing of the President and the NRA, it’s just surprising to me they’d just drop it.
Just seems like it has to some reason beyond their control.

The next issue came up. And/or there was no political gain by putting the effort to get them enacted.

Politicians just jump on the issues getting media attention. Thankfully public interest wained and they moved on.

Personally I don’t care about bump stocks but I think the bans are stupid. So I’m glad that they went nowhere.
 
I think maybe Trump and the R’s are taking a page from the D’s playbook. You express shock and anger. You’re gonna make somebody pay. Per Obama and Clinton. Somebody WILL be held accountable.

<crickets chirping>
 
It is not dead.

Being a election year the Democrats choose to focus on other issues. If the Dems win the House it, along with a lot of very restrictive gun bills, will be introduced. That is why a strong Conservative Senate is so important. We need enough seats to counter the RHINOS.

It is not politics to say that Gun Owners will pay a very deep price for supporting President Trump when the Democrats regain power in Washington.

"Here’s Nancy Pelosi’s to-do list if Democrats win back the House

Nancy Pelosi is detailing the Democratic Party’s to-do list if it manages to win back control of the House of Representatives.

House Democrats plan to introduce a package for campaign finance reform as their first bill of the 116th Congress, said the minority leader, according to a Politico report.

After that, Democrats will pursue reducing drug prices, the veteran California congresswoman said, in talking about a move that would affect pharmaceutical makers PJP, -4.09% . Then, they will make an effort to work with Republicans on a bill on background checks for gun purchases..."

Notice Gun Control is the third item on her list according to the article. Actually it is the first since campaign finance reform will be aimed at the NRA and other Conservative organizations.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h...st-if-Democrats-win-back-the-house-2018-10-16
 
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Do a Google search for bump stock ban and a few articles come up from around Oct 1 quoting Trump as saying we're a few weeks a way from the ban. A public hearing is a mandatory part of the process and takes time... it's already happened.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1MB3C3
I called my self looking but I certainly didn’t find that. Thanks for posting. I didn’t figure it was dead.
I have never heard of the ATF taking comments on something and after the comment period ended just dropping it.
 
I called my self looking but I certainly didn’t find that. Thanks for posting. I didn’t figure it was dead.
I have never heard of the ATF taking comments on something and after the comment period ended just dropping it.

It could still be dropped but I think it's going to happen.

If Trump decides to run again, it's something that won't hurt his base support too much and gives him a good come back to the left by saying he got it done and Obummer couldnt.
 
The real question is whether the rulemaking has a retroactive component. If the BATF works out some kludge that makes bump fire stocks equivalent to an unregistered machine gun--then they would be allowed to go after those with them. I suspect the legal issues revolves around the well defined BATF one shot per trigger pull definition for legal semi-auto fire. However, the bump stock that permits the rifle to behave as if it has auto capability circumvents this by retaining the one trigger pull to generate many shots. The fact that most semi autos can be made to do this without equipment is also an issue.
 
The bump stock ban was put into bureaucratic limbo until after the election. I think we'll see movement on it pretty soon afterwards.

The last-minute comments by the NRA, raising 5th Amendment "taking" issues and a possible amnesty, are bound to have some effect. Banning bump stocks is not going to be as easy as it seemed at first glance.
 
That's not how bump-stocks or bump-fire works. The trigger still must be pulled for each shot.
If I remember right, from reading the legal mumbo-jumbo ATF thingy 4-5 months ago, their basic argument was that the stock allowed energy to be stored. Therefore the energy from one shot was stored to another, to another, etc etc. thus making it single event..

Now take that with a big grain of salt, because it’s my paraphrase of a legal document I may not have interpreted right to start with, months ago.
If I’m mistaken someone feel free to correct me.
 
That's not how bump-stocks or bump-fire works. The trigger still must be pulled for each shot.
Yes, if you read MistWolf, I said it behaves as if it was auto but does it with one trigger pull. Recoil and the stock design does the rest.
 
Regardless of the source of the impulse, the trigger is pulled by a finger for each (difficult to aim) shot.
I dislike the idea of bump stocks, drift cars, street racers, or anything else that reduces the safety of others purely to provide a thrill for the user.
Nonetheless, any ban on these devices will lead to undesirable and unanticipated consequences.
 
The bump stock stores no energy. It has no springs. It is simply a stock that slides back and forth. It is the shooter that provides the energy that presses the trigger for the next shot.

A semi-automatic firearm fires one bullet per action of the trigger. Installing a bump stock does not and cannot change that. With a bump stock, the trigger still has to be released, then pressed again to fire the next shot. All the bump stock does is give the shooter a faster trigger finger. Nothing more.
 
Regardless of the source of the impulse, the trigger is pulled by a finger for each (difficult to aim) shot.
I dislike the idea of bump stocks, drift cars, street racers, or anything else that reduces the safety of others purely to provide a thrill for the user.
Nonetheless, any ban on these devices will lead to undesirable and unanticipated consequences.

I agree but the BATF has long used the one pull of the trigger, one shot as the legal std. for semi-auto. The Bumpfire or the other trick trigger gadgets make that complicated to rule out semi-autos but ban devices that circumvent the intent of the machine gun language in the NFA. There was something similar in that the ATF ruled in 1982 that even if you make an open bolt design firearm that is semi-automatic--it is too easy to convert to a machine gun. Thus, it is illegal to do so but by the grace of the ATF, they did not make the ban retroactive.

Here is the proposed rationale for the ATF's rule "
In this proposed rule, the Department accordingly interprets the definition of “machinegun” to clarify that all bump-stock-type devices are “machineguns” under the GCA and NFA because they convert a semiautomatic firearm into a firearm that shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

The ATF cites Akins v. United States, 312 F. App'x 197, 200 (11th Cir. 2009) (per curiam) as justification to change its interpretation of what constitutes a machine gun. To that end, the proposed rule includes a new qualification that argues even if there is one single trigger pull, a bump stock starts a process that results in firing more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger citing United States v. Olofson, 563 F.3d 652, 658 (7th Cir. 2009) as legal support for that conclusion. Realistically, this means a legal challenge to the new rule will probably go nowhere unless the U.S. Supreme Court extends the protections of Heller considerably via requiring strict scrutiny on 2A cases.

Olofson is the case where a guy had a malfunctioning AR15 rifle that discharged more than one shot per trigger pull at a range. It fired bursts and then jammed several times. Evidence in the appellate record is mixed whether or not Olofson installed M16 fire control parts or modified a disconnector purposefully. The appeal centered solely on the jury instructions as to what constitutes an automatic weapon (aka machine gun) under the NFA.

The money quote from Olofson is " As used here, the terms “automatic” and “fully automatic” refer to a weapon that fires repeatedly with a single pull of the trigger.   That is, once its trigger is depressed, the weapon will automatically continue to fire until its trigger is released or the ammunition is exhausted.   Such weapons are “machineguns” within the meaning of the Act. (NFA)"

Thus, "Specifically, ATF has determined that these devices initiate an “automatic[]” firing cycle sequence “by a single function of the trigger” because the device is the primary impetus for a firing sequence that fires more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger. 26 U.S.C. 5845(b)."

From the data in the federal register, it appears that there are several hundred thousand (up to potentially nearly 500,000) of these stocks that will have to be recalled and destroyed. I do not believe that the ATF has the statutory authority to make this rule apply only in the future (prospective rule). If the device mounted to a rifle makes it a machine gun under the NFA, then it must be registered as such or held by someone who has a registered machine gun, but due to the Hughes Amendment, it cannot be as the registry is frozen. Thus, bumpfire stocks must be recalled and destroyed and upon the final publication of the rule sale or possession of these appears to become illegal under the NFA with all due penalties (at the minimum of thirty days after) and pending legal challenges to the rule. Haven't reviewed the legal authority for the ATF to extend beyond that limit.

Here is the location of the proposed rule
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/03/29/2018-06292/bump-stock-type-devices

Given the massive number of these, it might make sense to push Congress (if Republicans retain it) to use this as a wedge to reopen the registry for an amnesty period at least. That would let the folks retain their stocks who already have them and bring forth an other illegal ones out of the shadows and have these registered. The justification can be government revenue which bypasses the Senate's filibuster if done under deficit reduction rules in the Senate.
 
BSA1 writes:
It is not politics to say that Gun Owners will pay a very deep price for supporting President Trump when the Democrats regain power in Washington.

Yes, we should have supported the only other candidate who stood a chance of winning at the time.
 
The big headache is that a machine gun is defined in Federal law. Bump stocks don't meet that definition. And ATF has issued letters to that effect. This has a whole lot of potential issues for ATF (who I suspect is hoping it either Goes Away or is dealt with legislatively). Not so much 2A as 4A...the Government seizing property legitimately purchased. On top of which, there's the whole issue of ATF letters being liable to reversal.
 
The big headache is that a machine gun is defined in Federal law. Bump stocks don't meet that definition. And ATF has issued letters to that effect. This has a whole lot of potential issues for ATF (who I suspect is hoping it either Goes Away or is dealt with legislatively). Not so much 2A as 4A...the Government seizing property legitimately purchased. On top of which, there's the whole issue of ATF letters being liable to reversal.

As a matter of administrative law, rulemaking trumps agency letters. Letters are more or less an agency's interpretation of the law on an ad hoc basis. This is also called informal agency action. In the case of Chevron v. NRDC, the Supreme Court required federal courts to defer to agencies on matters that dealt with agency expertise and defer to agencies on their construction of statutory language when drafting regulations based on agency expertise. Effectively, under the APA, courts may supervise the process but must defer to agencies regarding content of regulations unless other statutes apply or an agency's actions are an unreasonable construction of the governing statute.

The ruling statute (NFA) for the BATF defines machine guns as "Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger." Thus, the key word is automatically which the circuit court of appeals in Olofson effectively defined as shooting more than one shot per trigger pull. Thus, the BATF already has court tested language for its new regulation that unless the Supreme Court changes something major using Heller such as requiring strict scrutiny for firearms regulations, bump stocks appear gone. Given the language in Olofson, it will be difficult to argue that an agency following a federal court interpretation is acting unreasonable.

The binary trigger might, however, still remain legal for now.
 
I remember reading that the Atkins Accelerator used a spring to store energy for the process to continue and therefore was different than the slidefire bumpstocks. That was what got them in trouble in the first place.
 
Install a bump stock on your AR. Pull the trigger and hold the trigger back. The rifle will only fire ONE shot! To fire again, the trigger must be released, then pulled once more. (The exception would be if the AR had a trigger that fires when pressed and released which is also semi-automatic.) The bump stock lets the rifle move backward until the trigger moves away from the trigger until the trigger resets. The shooter must then pull the rifle forward until the trigger contacts the finger and the trigger is then pressed for the next shot. Anyone trying to define a rifle with a bump stock as a machinegun is engaging in doubletalk.
 
I think the gov't lack of action is two fold. Bump stocks are novelties and 2. the public doesn't care (unless the Democrats, the View and Jimmy Kimmel are telling them how evil they are...)

So after some time passed, it died. Personally, I have some serious doubt about the firearms aspect of the Las Vegas shooting. The videos that I saw, you could hear there was sustained fire, almost belt fed, or selector fire. Not bump stocks. There is more to all of that. Someday we might know.
 
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