denton
Member
Thinking back, the police officer most often seen on the streets of the small town I grew up in carried a 22 revolver..... Think Mayberry, circa 1956.
So you're a police chief of a small department...
- Thread starter Charlie Horse
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Elkins45
Member
I don't see how you could justify one for a large department either. If we are going to buy military hardware then get one of those killer robots like they used in Dallas.
TRX
Member
My local PD has 15 sworn officers.
Last I looked they had four patrol cars and four unmarked cars. Each has a pump shotgun in a locking dashboard bracket and a full-auto M16 in the trunk. I'm not aware that any of the M16s has ever been used.
Years ago officers bought their own pistols in 9mm or .38, which were the approved calibers then. I don't know what they're doing now.
Last I looked they had four patrol cars and four unmarked cars. Each has a pump shotgun in a locking dashboard bracket and a full-auto M16 in the trunk. I'm not aware that any of the M16s has ever been used.
Years ago officers bought their own pistols in 9mm or .38, which were the approved calibers then. I don't know what they're doing now.
crazyjennyblack
Member
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Small department often equals poor. It certainly does where I live, where most of the Sheriff's deputies drive 2001-2004 Crown Victorias with at least 300k miles on them. Not kidding. I think most of the officers use personal guns for duty work. If I were a chief/sheriff of a small rural department with maybe 20 employees, here's what I would do -
Officer buys his/her own duty handgun, with a $300 bonus check provided to the officer after one year of service to help on the cost. Gun must be a semi-auto in 9x19mm with a magazine capacity of at least 13 rounds, and officer must demonstrate proficiency and reliable function with department-issued ammo.
A long arm would be provided for each vehicle - typically a Hi-point 9mm carbine. Officers would also be able to carry a personal longarm of choice in .223, 9mm, .308, or 12 gauge if they can demonstrate proficiency. One officer per shift would carry an AR-15. A couple of Remington 700 .308's and a used 37mm gas gun could reside in the department armory for special situations. 9mm ammunition would be most common, and would be provided by the department for duty and training.
From what I've seen, rural departments and small towns typically deal with things ranging from drunk-and-disorderly to the occasional meth lab, spiced up with putting down half-killed deer by the side of the road.
Officer buys his/her own duty handgun, with a $300 bonus check provided to the officer after one year of service to help on the cost. Gun must be a semi-auto in 9x19mm with a magazine capacity of at least 13 rounds, and officer must demonstrate proficiency and reliable function with department-issued ammo.
A long arm would be provided for each vehicle - typically a Hi-point 9mm carbine. Officers would also be able to carry a personal longarm of choice in .223, 9mm, .308, or 12 gauge if they can demonstrate proficiency. One officer per shift would carry an AR-15. A couple of Remington 700 .308's and a used 37mm gas gun could reside in the department armory for special situations. 9mm ammunition would be most common, and would be provided by the department for duty and training.
From what I've seen, rural departments and small towns typically deal with things ranging from drunk-and-disorderly to the occasional meth lab, spiced up with putting down half-killed deer by the side of the road.
Panzerschwein
member
Sidearm: CZ P-09
Shotgun: Mossberg 500 Tactical 6 shot model with buttstock shell holder and sling, bead sight
Rifle: S&W M&P-15, basic model with Aimpoint PRO and backup Magpul flip up sights and nothing else except a sling
Precision rifle: Standard Remington 700P LTR deployment package.
For fun, issued ammo:
Sidearm: Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P
Shotgun: Federal Tactical 9 pellet 00 buckshot
Rifle: Hornady TAP 75 grain FPD
Precision rifle: Federal Gold Medal Match 168 grain Sierra Matchking
Shotgun: Mossberg 500 Tactical 6 shot model with buttstock shell holder and sling, bead sight
Rifle: S&W M&P-15, basic model with Aimpoint PRO and backup Magpul flip up sights and nothing else except a sling
Precision rifle: Standard Remington 700P LTR deployment package.
For fun, issued ammo:
Sidearm: Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P
Shotgun: Federal Tactical 9 pellet 00 buckshot
Rifle: Hornady TAP 75 grain FPD
Precision rifle: Federal Gold Medal Match 168 grain Sierra Matchking
lemaymiami
Member
I enjoyed some of the fantasy responses here - and did note a few actually reasonable proposals..... Now for some cold water...
I spent a career in a small (100 man) department a few years back and when I left police work I knew a half dozen of my contemporaries that actually went on to become chiefs here and there. Before any chief can even think of re-arming or equipping his/her force they're going to have to make the pitch to their council/commission -whoever holds the purse strings... For those not aware of it -that's one of any chief's major tasks each year - convincing their paying authority to equip the department properly (or at least at current levels - pity the chief that has to downgrade his agency's vehicles, weapons, uniforms - but it happens all the time). I won't even mention raises or other pay issues for any department...
Once we chose and got approved a standard weapons package for our department (with mine it was Sig Sauer 40 cal with night sights, then HK Mp-5's, suppressed for an eight man SRT -we already had the appropriate long guns - a few AR's and one 308 for the sniper...) you're then on the hook for the necessary training (not to mention additional personnel costs and, of course, ammunition to keep everyone to a decent standard. Along with all of that you're going to need some advice from both your City attorneys, and your county authorities on various liability issues (don't ask how I know about this sort of stuff except to say that I was in charge of training for my agency for a three year period in the early nineties.. and we were in the process of becoming the first nationally accredited PD in Dade county (now Metro Dade county).
When I chose to retire out and get into another like of work entirely I knew it was the right choice for me. I was also pretty certain that I had a really good chance of out-living all those who chose to become chiefs when the opportunity arose (whether it was a tiny department or bigger). All of the issues a chief faces are pretty complex and he/she will be the first to get the axe if something gets controversial and your city or county chooses to use a scape goat..... The figure I've often heard quoted is that the average tenure for a chief nationwide is around 18 months.
I spent a career in a small (100 man) department a few years back and when I left police work I knew a half dozen of my contemporaries that actually went on to become chiefs here and there. Before any chief can even think of re-arming or equipping his/her force they're going to have to make the pitch to their council/commission -whoever holds the purse strings... For those not aware of it -that's one of any chief's major tasks each year - convincing their paying authority to equip the department properly (or at least at current levels - pity the chief that has to downgrade his agency's vehicles, weapons, uniforms - but it happens all the time). I won't even mention raises or other pay issues for any department...
Once we chose and got approved a standard weapons package for our department (with mine it was Sig Sauer 40 cal with night sights, then HK Mp-5's, suppressed for an eight man SRT -we already had the appropriate long guns - a few AR's and one 308 for the sniper...) you're then on the hook for the necessary training (not to mention additional personnel costs and, of course, ammunition to keep everyone to a decent standard. Along with all of that you're going to need some advice from both your City attorneys, and your county authorities on various liability issues (don't ask how I know about this sort of stuff except to say that I was in charge of training for my agency for a three year period in the early nineties.. and we were in the process of becoming the first nationally accredited PD in Dade county (now Metro Dade county).
When I chose to retire out and get into another like of work entirely I knew it was the right choice for me. I was also pretty certain that I had a really good chance of out-living all those who chose to become chiefs when the opportunity arose (whether it was a tiny department or bigger). All of the issues a chief faces are pretty complex and he/she will be the first to get the axe if something gets controversial and your city or county chooses to use a scape goat..... The figure I've often heard quoted is that the average tenure for a chief nationwide is around 18 months.
Another point about undercover. If you're a small department how many people can you put undercover?
Issuing backup guns doesn't really work. Those that will carry them will supply their own. Issue them and the only time most of them will come out is for qualification.
Issuing backup guns doesn't really work. Those that will carry them will supply their own. Issue them and the only time most of them will come out is for qualification.
MICHAEL T
Member
Small town Police 1 pistol passed on every shift. 2 rounds for pocket carry . Mossberg shot gun in rack . 1 speed gun and 2 ticket books You will write your daily salary in tickets every day. . That's a small town PD.
We are not talking about the policies of policing. We are talking about what firearms you would arm the local small force with. Stick to guns.
Ed Ames
Member
I would not issue sidearms, nor allow my officers to open carry their own. Concealed, they can have anything they can qualify with.
I would put a Mossberg 500 in every cruiser cab, and an mp5 or m4 in the trunks if budget allowed, but small town policing isn't a gun game.
I would put a Mossberg 500 in every cruiser cab, and an mp5 or m4 in the trunks if budget allowed, but small town policing isn't a gun game.
Ignition Override
Member
How often do they 'qualify' anyway?
Last night a chat with a lady LEO sitting in one of the Ruby Tuesdays near ATL Airport (Sullivan Rd. or Virginia Ave
.) gave me the impression that she was barely familiar with her issue rifle, whatever it is.
Should a given department have handguns which share the same ammo, as might be the case with their rifles. i.e. .223, so that the rifles safely use civilian ammo?
Last night a chat with a lady LEO sitting in one of the Ruby Tuesdays near ATL Airport (Sullivan Rd. or Virginia Ave
.) gave me the impression that she was barely familiar with her issue rifle, whatever it is.Should a given department have handguns which share the same ammo, as might be the case with their rifles. i.e. .223, so that the rifles safely use civilian ammo?
How often do they 'qualify' anyway?
Last night a chat with a lady LEO sitting in one of the Ruby Tuesdays near ATL Airport (Sullivan Rd. or Virginia Ave
Should a given department have handguns which share the same ammo, as might be the case with their rifles. i.e. .223, so that the rifles safely use civilian ammo?
For the pistols most states, including Georgia, require annual qualification for all state certified peace officers with some individual departments having their own more frequent requirements. Don't know what standards are for rifles.
I don't understand your second question. The same ammo as what, and what is "civilian ammo"?
Police officers are civilians BTW.
dogtown tom
Member
So what would y'all pick?
I vote letting each officer choose what firearm he carries. The department should pay a stipend for equipment.
I vote letting each officer choose what firearm he carries. The department should pay a stipend for equipment.
JR24
Member
Looks good to me.
I actually was a police chief of a very small department in the early 2000’s. Like my predecessor, since officers supplied their own weapon, my philosophy was “if you can qualify with it you can carry it.” That went for the duty weapon and the secondary or official back up, with the onion field BUG not actually recognized, but I know they were there. Some of the guns I’d seen as BUGs were 380 Colt Mustang, derringers in various calibers from 22lr to 357 mag, Jennings and Colt 25 acps and Beretta 25s and 32s. These were usually kept in pants pockets, boots or velcro’d inside the vest. The shotgun was an ancient Hi Standard pump that had had thousands of rounds through it, since everyone had to qualify with the one shotgun over the course of 20 years, but it still kept going bang without a hitch.
With that said, I think you have to pick shotgun or rifle for the squad car, I would ditch the shotgun and make it an M4 style carbine, but something low cost like Colts Expanse rifle with Magpul sights and stoked with Hornaday TAP or similar style of soft point round. This would fill a big chunk of the precision rifle duties and negate having to have a precision rig. Small departments typically can’t afford to maintain a designated marksmen and would have access to a county or state police tactical if needed. Officer duty weapon would be S&W Fullsize M&P 9mm with thumb safety, secondary would be M&P Shield also in 9. I like a safety on the primary, if for any other reason that when it is snatched it might give the officer an extra second or two to pull his backup while the gun grabber is trying to figure out how to fire it. Nothing sexy, but fugal and maintainable.
With that said, I think you have to pick shotgun or rifle for the squad car, I would ditch the shotgun and make it an M4 style carbine, but something low cost like Colts Expanse rifle with Magpul sights and stoked with Hornaday TAP or similar style of soft point round. This would fill a big chunk of the precision rifle duties and negate having to have a precision rig. Small departments typically can’t afford to maintain a designated marksmen and would have access to a county or state police tactical if needed. Officer duty weapon would be S&W Fullsize M&P 9mm with thumb safety, secondary would be M&P Shield also in 9. I like a safety on the primary, if for any other reason that when it is snatched it might give the officer an extra second or two to pull his backup while the gun grabber is trying to figure out how to fire it. Nothing sexy, but fugal and maintainable.
AR's have gotten so common and cheap you could argue against a shotgun at all. Are there still USGov anti terror grants to get M-4s to cops? I'd find out.
I wouldn't cuss anyone's choice of a 'hideout gun' provided the department knows you have it. An 'unknown gun' at an officer involved shooting could cause all manner of troubles.
General duty I'd recommend a 9mm (or larger) the officer can qualify with. The qual. course would be on par with a big city or fed program. Training is probably more important than caliber or make. Spend the department dollars on that. Try to provide ammo and range time to promote practice.
Make sure everyone has a good vest.
I wouldn't cuss anyone's choice of a 'hideout gun' provided the department knows you have it. An 'unknown gun' at an officer involved shooting could cause all manner of troubles.
General duty I'd recommend a 9mm (or larger) the officer can qualify with. The qual. course would be on par with a big city or fed program. Training is probably more important than caliber or make. Spend the department dollars on that. Try to provide ammo and range time to promote practice.
Make sure everyone has a good vest.
I can imagine a small dept. back in the 60's buying up surplused NY State Patrol .45 Colt New Services or WW2 Government .45's ,M1 Carbines and being very pleased.
Police trades these days tend to be less interesting.
Police trades these days tend to be less interesting.
Rock185
Member
I never made chief so I won't hazard a what if. I can say what a small dept. I am familiar with issues Patrol officers. They are starting to issue 9MM Glocks. The Glocks will become the only authorized primary weapon after everyone has a Glock issued and completes transition training and qualification. Previously, officers carried personally owned Glocks, SIGs and Series '80 Colts. Each officer is issued a Remington 870 Shotgun and M-16A1 rifle converted to semi-auto. Some carry the Glock G26 or J-Frame .38 Spcl. S&Ws as second weapons. The special team guys have some other types of weapons available. All officers train and qualify with all weapons carried and any they may be called upon to utilize on duty. Qualification standards are exactly the same for all departments in the state.
Very funny Michael T. That was my and my fellow officers perception too when I was with the big city dept. where I spent 2/3 of my career. I found the reality somewhat different and not near so humorous when I actually worked in a smaller town.
lemaymiami, you are right on. I once told the chief that he was a politician. He agreed and said he had to be to get anything done.
Very funny Michael T. That was my and my fellow officers perception too when I was with the big city dept. where I spent 2/3 of my career. I found the reality somewhat different and not near so humorous when I actually worked in a smaller town.
lemaymiami, you are right on. I once told the chief that he was a politician. He agreed and said he had to be to get anything done.
Ruger American Pistol, Springfield Armory short-barreled M1A, Mossberg 590.
I had a friend who was a deputy in a very poor county about 15 yrs. ago and you had to provide your own weapons. He carried a beat up Ruger P89 and had no long gun. Finally he started carrying the only gun he could afford as a long gun a Mosin-Nagant in his trunk.
Ignition Override
Member
Warp:
I was just curious whether all handguns within any given dept. must be the same chambering (9mm vs. .40 cal.), and whether all dept. rifles must be able to use the same ammo, i.e. every day .223 vs. 5.56 ammo, in order to have a very wide variety available.
True, police are not active duty in the US DOD, but a few sometimes refer to non-LEOs as "civilians".
On a very random side note, some of the full-time ANG C-130 Squadron officers are, or were technically civilian Govt. Service during peacetime, even though they wear office blues or 'zoom bags' (at least in the early '80s) sitting at a desk in Ops.
I was just curious whether all handguns within any given dept. must be the same chambering (9mm vs. .40 cal.), and whether all dept. rifles must be able to use the same ammo, i.e. every day .223 vs. 5.56 ammo, in order to have a very wide variety available.
True, police are not active duty in the US DOD, but a few sometimes refer to non-LEOs as "civilians".
On a very random side note, some of the full-time ANG C-130 Squadron officers are, or were technically civilian Govt. Service during peacetime, even though they wear office blues or 'zoom bags' (at least in the early '80s) sitting at a desk in Ops.
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Orcon
Member
Yes, LEO self aggrandizement is strong today. If you want an m4, join the Army. Now here's your .38.
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CoRoMo
Member
Sidearm = .50 Desert Eagle
BUG = G32
Patrol Rifle = .300 BLK Mini14
Patrol Shotgun = 28ga Beretta 686
Precision Rifle = Lazzeroni Firebird
Non-Lethal = J & L Guard Alaska
BUG = G32
Patrol Rifle = .300 BLK Mini14
Patrol Shotgun = 28ga Beretta 686
Precision Rifle = Lazzeroni Firebird
Non-Lethal = J & L Guard Alaska
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