Equipping a Police Department

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Nightcrawler

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If you were in charge of purchasing weapons for a fairly large, well-funded police department, what would you pick? What kind of training regimen would you put together?

Today's police seem to suffer from many of the same problems the military has. In other words, bureaucrats don't want to spend enough money and time on firearms training, and the individuals involved aren't interested enough in it to become better on their own.

Keep in mind I'm not, nor have I ever been a police officer, so take my ideas for what they are; devoid of actual experience.

So the first thing I would do would be to have my officers complete a fairly healthy training cycle, with bi-monthly or so qualifications (as opposed to annual) in order to keep them on their toes. Plenty of training range time would be made available. (Of course, this is in la-la land where I could get funding for this.) It would be departmental policy to encourage officers to practice with their duty weapons whenever possible.

As for the weapons of choice? I've thought about this, actually. Jeff Cooper suggested that the ideal police service arm is a major-caliber revolver. Why revolver instead of auto? Because revolvers are simpler to use and learn. Of course, as he put it, Class A cops will take the time to become proficient with autos, but how many of those are there? (Paraphrased, can't recall exactly how he put it.)

I'd also want the duty revolver to be plenty powerful, but not offering too much recoil, so I'd go with a S&W 625 5" in .45ACP. Training with the use of moonclips, and how you can't just drop the rounds into the cylinder, would be part of joining the force. Officers would be told to carry as much spare ammunition as they felt they needed, though a minimum of two reloads would be required.

Lest anyone worry about my officers being "outgunned" by drug dealers (that was the primary reason given when many departments, even in rural areas, switched from .357s to 9mm semiautos, wasn't it?), the officers would have longarms at their disposal. Each patrol car, in addition to having two officers (so nobody's out there alone), would be supplied with a duty rifle and/or a shotgun. The rifle would be a Marlin stainless 336 .30-30 lever rifle, fitted with synthetic furniture and ghost ring sights. The shotgun would be a Remington 870 Police with ghost ring sights, so that both weapons had the same sight picture. Bi-monthly qualification on these simple, easy to use weapons would be required as well. (Since I'm living in la-la land, my force would have a large ammunition budget.) These weapons are also more cost effective than M4 carbines and are simpler to learn for non-shooters who happen to be police officers.

But to be fair to the individual officers, they would be allowed to carry any duty weapon or backup that they could demonstrate proficiency and qualify with. This way, if an officer took the time to become skilled with, say, a 1911, he/she'd be allowed to carry it on duty. The only requirements would be that the weapon must be a semiautomatic or a double action revolver, no less powerful than .38 Special or 9x19mm and no more powerful than .44 Magnum. .38, 9x19, .40, 10mm, .45ACP, .357, .44 Spec/Mag, .41 Mag, and .45 Colt would all be on the approved list, and I'd be open to suggestions within reason. But no .454 Casulls or .500 S&Ws, is all.

If both the officers assigned to a car agreed to qualify with it and demonstrated safe handling and proficiency, then they could supply their own duty rifles/shotguns as well, within guidelines.

If the situation called for more firepower than the officers with their longarms could muster, then that'd be a job for SWAT, who'd have (and would require to become VERY skilled with) the best gear that met their mission requirements (though since it's MY force, preferance would be given to .45ACP pistols and submachine guns....) :evil:

But that's just my own crazy ideas. What would you do?
 
I would send my police force to Thunder Ranch as part of their academy training with refreshers every six months.

My cops would be armed with a stock 1911 clone carried in condition one. AD's and ND's would be grounds for instant termination.

Those failing to Ace a rigorous gun handling and safety course with a perfect score would be put on meter maid duty.

Police officers in my charge would be required to participate in many shoot/no shoot hogans alley scenarios and be taught to identify guns from pagers, cell phones, 5 year olds with water
pistols etc..

They would be screened regularly for god complex and for a prediliction for abuse and brutality. College courses on psychology, human rights, sociology, and race relations would be mandatory.

As far as heavier gear for armed gangs and such I would issue
Mossberg 500 series with synthetic stock, rifled barrel and armor piercing saboted slugs as well as 00 #4 and rocksalt available in a color coded clearly marked dispenser placed near the shotgun.

The officers would be rotated between street duty, administrative,
community relations (school outreach, youth programs) and training every 6 weeks to prevent the burned out, everyone is a bad guy, us and them mentality that creates the abuses we hear about regularly.
 
Not bad Nightcrawler...... but

I would change a few things.

I am an LEO, but I've never played one on TV. Made my 23rd year as of March 1, 2003. I have never worked for a large Department, I'm Working for the Largest one Ever right now 5 Deputies and a Sheriff. I am a Firearms (Handgun, Shotgun, Open Sight Rifle) Instructor.

If I were arming a Fairly Large 50 or so Sworn Officers. I would not buy 50 of anything. I'd buy 12 Ruger GP 100s and 12 S&W 4046s. That would be for New Officers, and those Officers who (Sadly there would be some) just don't want to own their own Handgun.

I would Offer each Officer that had completed Trainig, and probation, a $600.00 Credit and The Use of Department Letterhead with Chief's Signature (Gets you a Discount) to purchase the Handgun of thier choice, plus a Duty Holster to fit. Handguns would have to pass inspection of Firearms Officer. (Lorcin, Davis, Etc. need not apply) These weapons would be theirs to keep solong as they carried them on Duty for one year. I have found that Officers take better care of and shoot more with personal weapons than with a Department weapon.

Caliber Range would be 9mm Para / .38special / .38super / .357 Mag. / 40S&W / .44 Special / .45acp / .45 Colt. WHAT NO 10MM .41 Mag or .44Mag Nope, a Department this Large is going to be in a Urban/Suburban area. Last thing I want to hear on the radio is a Shooting and an Ambulance being called to 1st and Main, 2nd and Main, 3rd and Main.......you get the Idea.

Long guns would be standardised Remington 870 or Mossburg 590 Shotguns, and AR15 rifles. I can hear some of you now. "I thought you were worried about over penetration!" Fact-The 55 grain FMC .223 has less penitration on bodys and buildings at 100yards and under than the .40 S&W.

Qualifacation would be Quarterly, with Officers needing to score in the 90% range to Maintain Qualifacation. Those that wish to carry 1911s and Glocks would have to score 95% or better. Reason I concider Both 1911s and Glocks to be experts guns. Yes I know Glocks are simple to operate but they are also simple to royally screw up with, which is the last thing you want in the hands of a frightened neophite. (Safe action my butt) The more proficiant and familure an Officer is with a weapon the less likely he/she is to shoot when it isn't nessasary, or wait too long to shoot.

My RTange would be open to my Officers every day, and open to officers with Family and or guests one week a month. Competitions would be held amoung the officers who wished. Prizes for winners might include extra day off with pay for Monthly winners and extra week of vacation for yearly winners.

I'll leave the Arming of the Emergency responce team for another Post.
 
Raymond, I'm no police officer and don't play one on TV, but don't most police departments want uniformity so if something's not working right they don't have to have a cop run out and buy another duty weapon if the one he or she uses needs gunsmithing? Just look at the recent Glock issues and PD responses (well gee, your glock is slam-firing? Go grab another one from the armory).

You have to balance the ideal for police performance - everyone cares for and chooses, within certain boundaries, their own weapons - with the reality that doing so creates a heavy burden for the weapons instructor(s) and gunsmith(s) who handle department firearms. And PD lawyers probably want one or a few main duty weapon(s) so they can do litigation research on those models.
 
Greeting's Folk's!

Well, lets look at the situation. 50 sworn officer's, with
no two persons being wired alike makes for difficult
decision's? But here is the rules I would institute:

Knowing that I'm going to have female's and some
male's with small hands we will have a fairly wide
variety of handgun's. Requirement's would be-

A. Uniformed Patrol Officer- Revolver or Semi-Auto
Weapon MUST be of quality manufactuer, as
made by a reputable company. Such company's shall
include: Smith & Wesson, Colt, Ruger, Beretta, Glock,
SIG-Sauer, H&K, Springfield Armory, and Kimber.

Barrel length MUST not be less than 4"; nor
greater than 6".

Caliber SHALL be from the following table:
.38 Special/.357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum,
9m/m Parabellum, .357 SIG, .40 Smith & Wesson, .45
ACP. or .45LC.


B. Plain Clothes "Undercover" Personel- Revolver or
Semi-Auto (same rule applies to these folk's, as it
does to the Uniformed Division)

Barrel length MUST be not less than 2"; nor
greater than 4".

Caliber choice MUST come from the above
"approved" table; or same as for the Uniformed
Division.

Shotgun's: The department SHALL issue
Remington model 1100 shotgun's, to be outfitted
in all patrol vechiles.

Rifles: The department SHALL issue the
Colt M-16A4 to "approved" SWAT personnel; and
one officer from the Special Operations
Command SHALL be issued an H&K MP5
of full auto design, to be used by the entry team.

Also, the department shall develope and train a
professional sniper in the use of a Remington model
700 40X in .308 caliber; to be used as needed in
"Tactical" situation's.

** FootNote- All officer's MUST be able to qualify
on an approved police qualification course at
least three (3) times a year; with the sidearm
of their choice.


Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
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Nightcrawler, I think your recommendations are pretty good, but I would make a few changes.

First, I like the big bore revolver idea, but insead of 45 ACP, I would either go with 45 Auto Rim (ballistically identical to ACP) or 44 Special. I would do this so as to avoid full moon clips, which I think are kind of fragile for carry, warp easily, and can cause the cylinder to lock up is they get warped or bent.

The lever gun is a good idea too, but would go with a pistol caliber like 357 or 44 mag instead of 30-30. You would get more rounds in the gun without reloading that way, and the gun will still be quite effective at the ranges that would be expected.
 
Jsalcedo

Here I was ready to Stop typing, and then I read your Post.

Thunder Ranch? I'd love it. The Taxpayers and City Fathers would rapidly find a new Chief of Police.

ADs and NDs ground for termination? All the expert shooters I know and most of the honest Firearms Instructor I know have all had at least one AD or ND in their life. Its Like Driving a car the only way to never make a Mistake is to never do it in the first place.

A perfect Score every time? Don't worry about the Office having a god complex. Only God could do it.

The Shoot /no shoot scenarios is great, so is practice identifacation.... but can you honestly say you could do it right every time? Shots fired call, witness points to a man walking away saying "there he is!" You order him to stop, he runs, you chase, he enters a darkened area. You follow, he spins around and points a dark object he is holding in his hand at you. Looks like a gun, there is no cover available. You order him to drop it. "F***you Pig!!!" You now have two tenths of a second to live if its a gun. What are YOU going to do?

I love the god Complex thing, parents of teenagers have that too just ask the kid when he doesn't get his way.

Prediliction for abuse or brutality? Please tell me how you are going to Devine this?

Psychology works pretty good in the Office, Street Psychology is something Pychologists haven't a clue how to teach or do.

Human Rights? I'd say thats covered in Consitutitional Law. Of which LEOs get more traning in 6 months of basic training than Lawyers do in 6 years of Pre-law and Law School.

Sociology sir is about the way groups of people act not about dealing with a person. If you follow sociology then you put people into boxes. Most Jews will act this way, most Euopeans act this way, Most Africans act this way. Sounds like institutionalized Discrimination to me.

Race Relations....... HUMMM
Put me Down as a Racist, I don't think you are as Smart, Loving, Moral, or Good as me if you are not of the same race I am. If you are of my race you are my brother or sister, you are my equal, and just like me you are responcible for your actions both good and bad. I belong to the HUMAN RACE what race do you belong to?

Armor Peircing Saboted Slugs????? Ambulances needed at 1st and Main, 2nd and Main, 3rd and Main, 4th and Main, stand by I need to get my Binoculars......
BTW do you know what happens when you fire buck though a Rifled barrel? I'll tell you if you get one pellet to go something close to straight down range you doing real good. by about 15 to 25 yard the safest thing to be in the area is the target. Sounds like a law suit to me.
ROCK SALT!!!??? Sir it is the Job of the Law Enforcement to Protect Life and Property and apprehend those person there is Probable cause to beleive have broken the law. It is not the Job of the Law Enforcement to Punish. How can you say you would screen out those who maybe prone to Abuse and Bruality, and then issue ammo that's only use is to Punish, Abuse and Brutalize. Besides Judges get really anoyed when LEOs start doing their Job for them.

Six week rotation? My goodness man you aare going to need 4 complete departments. Not to mention that if you put me in an Admin Office for 6 weeks I'm Going to KILL something (MY chief maybe) I sir was a street Cop, and am a Road Deputy, when I get burnt out I take vacation.

Not really as easy as you thought is it?
 
Funnily enough, in the Sheriff's dept. with which I am associated, we are equipped with more than guns. We also have radios, vehicles, uniforms, metal detectors, road flares, restraint devices, radar guns, and I-don't-remember-what-all that has to be paid for out of the dept. budget. Many of these things used to be in short supply until the present Sheriff took office. The dept. owns shotguns and a few handguns. Deputies provide their own sidearm subject to Sheriff's approval. We have, including all the part-timers, approximately 50 deputies. Too much emphasis on guns here, which is to be expected on a gun board, daily firefights are just not a factor for most law enforcement organizations. Training in the use of some of the newer equipment and in things like interrogation, investigation, etc. etc. etc. are of far more value to a department than having 50 stone cold steely-eyed gunslingers. As long as all officers are competent with a firearm, that is enough. Pursuing all officers being excellent with a firearm is pointless and expensive.
 
Tyme Good Question

Fact is that Most Departments that purchase Large lots of Duty Pistols, look at price first then at what they like and only then at what might be best for the Officers.
Under my system the Officer gets what they like and are comfortable with within reason.
If the weapon becomes inoperable and you don't have an approved replacement of there own then I had either a Ruger GP 100, or a S&W 4046 in the armory that you may use until yours is fixed.
As to the inevitable question of ammo and magazine interchangeability. Its Balderdash. If I come to back you up and you have used all your ammo and haven't solved the Problem...... exactly what in the world makes you think I'm going to give you some of mine to waste too!!!!! :banghead:

BTW In the past there were many Chiefs and Agencies went so far with uniformity that they would only hire males 5'10" to 6'2".

Another case in point In the Iowa Highway Patrol all holsters shall be issues by the Department of Public Safety. These holsters are full flap Cross Draw holsters and shall be worn infront of the left hip so that the pistol butt is facing to the Trooper's right side.

It doesn't Matter to the Iowa DPS if the Trooper Is left handed Just that he is uniform. This has only began to change in the last few years.

Edited for Spelling, worked last night getting tired
 
Golgo-13 Comments and a question

Comment 1. The question was ask how would you Arm a Department, not how would you outfit and equip it.

Comment 2. I bet you are happier with a weapon of your Choosing even within the Departments guidelines than you were or would be with the standard One size fits all.

Question, If the Bad Guys are in the School your children attend, shooting people, who would you prefer go in to get the BGs? A "competent" shot, or would you want the best damn shot on the Department? Do we somehow owe the Citizens of this country less than we would want for ourselves?

Comment 3. Few Departments spend less money on any other aspect of training than Use of Force, and nothing costs Departments more than the suits over use of force issues. Firearms cost Departments the more than any other issue during litigation. Most Departments lose because the minimum can easily be shown to be Deliberate Indifferance and or Failure to Train.

May you never have to use you weapon in anger, but should you have to, are you willing to bet your life on mere competence.
 
Look at the heading for the original post. "Equipping a Police Department."
Regarding marksmanship, there is still diminishing returns on the time and money invested in firearms training. Realistically, badguys shooting up schools happens a vanishingly small number of times. Other, more routine, events like domestic disturbances, pursuits, investigation of crime scenes, and so on happen much more often. Sometimes daily. Outside of the imaginary world of gun boards, budgets are limited. I would, as a taxpayer and a deputy, prefer to put more of that budget towards equipping and training personnel to successfully complete tasks that they face frequently rather than spend it on training them to face Al Quaeda in a shootout at the local elementary school.
Are we happier with weapons of our own choosing? Yes, I guess we are. Most deputies choose to go with some variation on the ubiquitous Glock, even so. I use a USP 40, FWIW.
 
Raymond VanDerLinden

I was talking about my police department with fantasy budget and super human applicants.

I do agree some of the things I said were far fetched but whiile I was dreaming I might as well go all the way :D

As far as Armor piercing slugs go, they would only be used against hard targets and I've read that 00 out of a rifled shotgun barrel only causes a 15% increase in shot pattern.


Oh well to each his own...I'm going back to la la land
 
Police department? Hmm, I think I'd give each officer the following.

1) S&W .357mag. six shot revolver.
2) Mossberg 12ga for backup (in car).
3) AR-15 .223rem (in car trunk with 5 10rd. magazines)

For those officers who show the aptitude:

1) Remington 700 VDL in .308win with Leupold Tactical scope for long range work. (Kept in station for emergencies only).

Plus:

1) Spare AR-15's, Mossberg 12ga's, and .357mag revolvers kept at station for spares.


Probably would send them to Thunder Ranch for firearms training and require that they read the Constitution once per month and have a full understanding of what it means when enforcing "local" and "state" laws.

Anything else in the armament category for police is excessive. IMHO
 
Race Relations....... HUMMM
Put me Down as a Racist, I don't think you are as Smart, Loving, Moral, or Good as me if you are not of the same race I am. If you are of my race you are my brother or sister, you are my equal, and just like me you are responcible for your actions both good and bad. I belong to the HUMAN RACE what race do you belong to?

You're waiting for lawsuits for racially profiling space aliens there, partner. I would exercise prudence :D

No matter what I would budget in Simunitions or at least Airsoft live-fire.

Not an expert here. Not a po-po nor do I play one, but I can pass as a mall security agent.
 
I don't know specific models, but for sidearms I would pick something that has a very close, if not identical gun in .22LR. All officers would be issued a carry weapon in .357, or another suitable caliber (I have pretty much no experience with handguns, you pick) and there would be a set of training guns in .22LR with a mandatory amount of range time(should help with the funding issue), and probably quarterly qualifying with their actual carry peice.
I think I would choose a revolver, mainly for the ease of learning to properly use it.
Shotguns would be 870's, no mandatory range time but you have to qualify every 6 months.
 
an Ambulance being called to 1st and Main, 2nd and Main, 3rd and Main...

:D Judgement Tree, I'm gonna like having you on this board. A belated welcome, BTW, I hadn't noticed your low post count on our last exchange.


I hereby nominate you as Supreme Police Chief of The United States, in charge of teaching common sense to all law enforcement department heads in the country. I do like your ideas.


Raymond says: Comment 1. The question was ask how would you Arm a Department, not how would you outfit and equip it.

Golgo replies: Look at the heading for the original post. "Equipping a Police Department."

Golgol's reply was correct, but inaccurate, because

the intrepid Nightcrawler began the thread with this question:

If you were in charge of purchasing weapons for a fairly large, well-funded police department, what would you pick? What kind of training regimen would you put together?


An appropriate question for a firearms board, perhaps?


I can pass as a mall security agent


No! No, Sir Skunk! YOU are the ULTIMATE in tactical mall security guard! YOU ARE THE MAN!

:D



I recall that Santa Ana, CA, PD (way back when) allowed their officers to carry any revolver they could qualify with, as long as it met a certain minimum caliber (not sure-think it was .38) and was NOT a maaaaaaggnnum! The reason being PR. Those EEEEVILLLL MAGNUMS are TOO POWERFUL! So a lot of them carried Smith 25s in .45 LC. Yeah! That'll work!
icon14.gif



I suspect the Magnum phobia would be every bit as much a PR/legal quagmire now as it was in the heyday of Dirty Harry.
 
Nightcrawler: Intrepid AND insightful. Good thread.

Sheriff Jim Wilson, in SHOOTING TIMES, wrote about his ideal police academy. He would equip & train the students w/ L-frame-style .357Mag revolvers (i.e. M-686, GP-100, etc.) for the duration of their study and for their first year on the force. They would have to qualify on the issued sixgun quarterly. If they didn't qualify, they would receive remedial training until they did. After the rookie year, the officers would be allowed to carry any quality gun they could qualify with each three months --or remain w/ the issue gun. He would also arrange for officers to take advanced training (i.e. Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc) subsidized by the department.

Another idea he had (which I strongly support) was to "encourage" officers to participate in community organizations (i.e. PTA, Boy Scouts, Habitat for Humanity, etc.). This would bridge the gap b/t the officers and the community and help avoid the "us vs. them" attitude that seems to be growing in many LE organizations.

I wouldn't mind working for that sheriff--or living in his county...:cool:
 
I'd use the IDPA qualifier as the standard. Easy to apply, and cheap. Officers would qualify at least at the level of Sharpshooter or go on meter maid duty - unarmed - until they did. (Sidenote: I've SEEN more than one sworn officer who would only qualify as Novice.) This standard would include all supervisory personnel who are expected or permitted to go about armed, all the way up to Police Superintendent or Chief.

Firearms would largely be officer's choice, as long as it was .38 Special / 9mmP or better, and he could qualify with it. (Including his off-duty piece.) Long guns would be available in virtually every vehicle, provided the officers qualified with them on a sort of "Rifle IDPA" course, details TBD.
College courses on psychology, human rights, sociology, and race relations would be mandatory.
I wouldn't waste time & money by requiring training in pseudoscience or political correctness, but "human rights" training would include a course on the Constitution & Bill of Rights - I'd want the officers well trained and well equipped, but I would NOT want to instill a paramilitary mentality. And if any officer used a racial/religious epithet on a citizen, he'd regret it.

Of course, if I were running the department, I'd also eliminate jobs that had "diversity" as any part of the title or job description, so I'd be out of work myself before very long. :rolleyes:
 
How come no one has mentioned the option of allowing the officers the option of buying their own gear so everyone gets what they like???:confused:

Matt, another advantage of working for Kerrville PD is pulling over Yankee visitors after they "misplace" their wallets at Mamacita's and drive back in a brisk manner.:D
 
El Tejon beat me to it. The ideal situation would be to provide your officers with a list of approved weapons and calibers and allow them to purchase their own. Reimburse them through their uniform allowance. An officer is more likely to want to practice with a weapon he/she selected.

Standardization is not important to a police agency like it is to the military. BTW COL Cooper suggested the private purchase option for sidearms in the military too.

Jeff
 
As one being in law enforcement for around 18 years, and working smaller depts, ( 30 officers and less), I would have to say training is the most important. Most officers, do not shoot, until they have to qualify, and then complain about it.:banghead:

As for weapons issued, I found that a lot of officers knew very little about shotguns, and were reluctant to use the,. although I have felt that they are a great urban tool. With that, I felt that rifles in their hands would be asking for trouble, since they would not spend the time to shoot, and be proficient.:rolleyes:

Schools, should the dept be able to pass it by the powers that be, are a great idea, and I look on it as any school that you can go to, will hopefully provide something new to learn.:D
 
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