Social Security Recipients with Fiduciaries Are Now Prohibited Persons

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Yep, it's not you that it affects so who cares? Maybe when you are forced to apply for SSD you'll change your tune.

Well I don't plan on going crazy and if I was in an accident or such where I lost pieces of my body or some other physical disability Im guessing I would be of sound mind enough to be financially responsible.

People who are on disability for mental reasons arent on it because their doctor said "Oh xxx is a crazy and can't work, sign em up!". It's usually because xxx has proven to the state that they are mentally ill. That sometimes takes trips to the mental hospital or law enforcement contact. The process involves social workers, doctors and sometimes lawyers. People fight to get on the gravy train. Parents hire lawyers so that their kids who are "mentally ill" can get on it. There are crooked doctors that will auto recommend.

Many of the older patients who have a payee are confined to nursing and group homes. Most of those places are a gun free zone anyways.

Either way look at it from a larger perspective.
1. The person is mentally ill and may be a danger to themselves or others.
2. The person is a faker abusing the system.
3. The person was involved with SSD before they could make decisions (i.e. Parents) hence an incentive for getting better.
5. The person is drawing money from the tax payer for basic necessities, not to buy luxury items.

And don't get me wrong, I know for a fact someone, somewhere along the line is going to get screwed by the system.
 
Sol said:
Well I don't plan on going crazy and if I was in an accident or such where I lost pieces of my body or some other physical disability Im guessing I would be of sound mind enough to be financially responsible.

Once again, that is the thing. It doesn't matter how sound your mind is or how financially responsible you are. If you are disabled to the point you are unable to handle your financial affairs and have to ask someone else to handle that - then as reported above, you'll be entered into NICS.

This isn't limited to mentally incompetent recipients. It affects anyone with a "responsible payee" whether you requested that yourself or the SSA designated one for you. Perhaps Valkman can explain what process he went through when the SSA designated a payee for him.
 
Yeah, you can't just pre-emptively disenfranchise and entire class of people (by fiat, no less) and expect them to appeal it on their own time. Our nation does not, has never, and cannot work that way. I assume the idea here is that someone unable to run their bills will likewise be unable to appeal their disenfranchisements. Rights belong only to the fittest. Expect voting rights to come next, btw.

TCB
 
And don't get me wrong, I know for a fact someone, somewhere along the line is going to get screwed by the system.

This is why I'm a 2nd Amendment absolutist. The ultimate KISS Formula. :scrutiny:
 
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This proposed action is unconscionable, an absolute travesty to everyone. If the SSA uses the VA's disasterous model as a template, it will be nothing short of a gun grab. I am one of those “representative payee" and the individual that I help should not fall under the prohibited categories that maybe created by the SSA's action...you don't have to be mentally I'll or incompetent to have a representative payee assigned.

If you feel you don't have a dog in this fight, you do. These type of actions will not stop here...get on the horn or email your reps about this. The thought of "this does not affect me" and silence is what this admin is counting on.
 
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I'm honestly surprised anybody would not see that this will net nonviolent and otherwise competent people. I had a friend who was exactly the kind of person who'd get stung by this. He had a tumor the size of a lemon removed from his brain. It did not make him mentally ill, or change his personality, or make him dangerous in any way. It removed his ability to do math. He couldn't make change, much less balance a checkbook. But he was never violent, not once in 25 years.
 
The person is drawing money from the tax payer for basic necessities, not to buy luxury items

Excuse me, I have been paying into Social Security since I was 16 and am still paying in. It will probably be broke before I am old enough to draw any money but that is not tax payer money it's my money at least until I draw every penny I and my employers have paid in which is sometime after 80, if I live that long, otherwise the goverment is money ahead.
How I spend my money in my retirement is my business.

I could also argue that a firearm for self defense is a basic necessity as well, not a luxury.

This policy is just wrong. Maybe I have a hard time balanceing my check book and remembering to pay bills on time, (I don't) but I am still able to determine when someone breaks in my house at night. Because I have someone to help with the first part my ability to do the second part would no longer matter.
It's just wrong....sigh
 
Once again, that is the thing.

It doesn't matter how sound your mind is or how financially responsible you are.

If you are disabled to the point you are unable to handle your financial affairs and have to ask someone else to handle that - then as reported above, you'll be entered into NICS.

Actually it does matter, since for this restriction to apply you have to be declared "incompetent", not just physically disabled.

This all got started when some Veterans wanted extra benefits, so they would have themselves declared "incompetent", not thinking what that really means.

Like most things these days, this is being blown out of proportion

The first paragraph of the article posted in the OP explains it in simple terms:

Seeking tighter controls over firearm purchases, the Obama administration is pushing to ban Social Security beneficiaries from owning guns if they lack the mental capacity to manage their own affairs, a move that could affect millions whose monthly disability payments are handled by others.

A potentially large group within Social Security are people who, in the language of federal gun laws, are unable to manage their own affairs due to "marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease."
 
Though the measure isn't a novel idea (it's simply a directive to make sure government agencies are complying with existing law in reporting), it still smells of yet another version of a "no-fly" list.

We all know how effective those are, right?

As the Yale psychiatrist noted, some veterans in need of assistance may refrain from seeking it for fear they would be so classed. I can see this becoming a pattern among many other recipients of SSA benefits.
 
Snyper, did you stop reading after the first two paragraphs? Because you not only omitted the most important paragraph of the article, you apparently neglected to read any of the posts in this thread where I explained this:

There is no simple way to identify that group, but a strategy used by the Department of Veterans Affairs since the creation of the background check system is reporting anyone who has been declared incompetent to manage pension or disability payments and assigned a fiduciary.
 
There is another danger to this as well. Children of people receiving SSD, also get SSD payments, typically the parent (assuming it is a physical disability, not a mental disability) are the "designated payee" for the child until the child turns 18 yrs of age. We all know how information hangs around in government databases and how database searches that are misrun due to incompetence on the programmer's part or INTENTIONALLY misrun, can sweep in bogus information.

In consequence, if a search is run, simply looking for the sometime existence of a "designated payee", without correctly applying filters to remove children (who has since grown) up, all of a sudden more people are on the NICS denial list that have absolutely no business being there, other than having a parent that got hurt.
 
This probably has very little practical consequence. What's troubling is that it's part of the "salami tactics" of the antigunners. Taking gun rights away in tiny increments. After a while, it adds up.
 
Perhaps people are confused by this point: "reporting anyone who has been declared incompetent to manage pension or disability payments and assigned a fiduciary[/quote]

You have to understand that ANYONE who has a representative payee is assumed to be incompetent to manage pension or disability benefits. The SSA doesn't have any easy way to tell which Representative Payees represent mental incompetents and which represent physical disability or convenience.

If you look at the Form SSA-11, (Request to Assign Rep. Payee) you can see why this is.

Further, you've got several members here in this forum, who have been here for years, who are gun owners, telling you this affects them personally. Even if 99.5% of every one affected is mentally incompetent, that still leaves roughly 20,000+ gun owners who are going to be added to NICS with no notice or due process. So I'm having a difficult time understanding why some members see this as no big deal.
 
With this potentially affecting 4.2 million adults, this will have huge "practical consequences".
 
Perhaps people are confused by this point: "reporting anyone who has been declared incompetent to manage pension or disability payments and assigned a fiduciary

You have to understand that ANYONE who has a representative payee is assumed to be incompetent to manage pension or disability benefits. The SSA doesn't have any easy way to tell which Representative Payees represent mental incompetents and which represent physical disability or convenience.

If you look at the Form SSA-11, (Request to Assign Rep. Payee) you can see why this is.

Further, you've got several members here in this forum, who have been here for years, who are gun owners, telling you this affects them personally. Even if 99.5% of every one affected is mentally incompetent, that still leaves roughly 20,000+ gun owners who are going to be added to NICS with no notice or due process. So I'm having a difficult time understanding why some members see this as no big deal.


I admit..... I didn't 'get it' initially. And I initially misunderstood your other post until you explained more. Thanks, I reversed my initial opinion when you further explained.

I was falling into their trap.... and (LOL) you threw me the life line a couple times before I grabbed ahold


I bolded part of your quote. That spells it out even better, IMO.


Its just another incremental step to disarm people and if I had just fallen back to one of my previous comments in this thread, we'd all be fine as it is today.


Quoting Myself

If they aren't capable of handling their own business, they probably couldn't fill out the forms needed to buy one from a FFL or the ability to coherently look for a private seller in a free state where they both should be living.


Thanks for your patience and continuing to explain to me and everyone else.

It's horse pucky.
 
Let's slow it down a little.

I am or will be 67 in a week, I have heard nothing about any of this.I bought a weapon the first of July.I have a cousin who works for S.S she told me and I Quote:If a person get's on disability or S.S claiming a diminished capacity, and have to have their check come with a co-beneficiary if one plays crazy, that will or could be your penalty.If you go on record as not being able to handle your own affairs and need someone to do it for you, and not due to a medical illness, you May get flagged.Just being on S.S makes no different.
 
vedonnell691, this does not affect all Social Security recipients. Right now, the only people with the potential to be affected are the 4.2 million recipients who have "Representative Payees" (someone other than the recipient is allowed to manage/control the money from Social Security).

If you look at a Form SSA-11 (Request for Representative Payee), there are two problems. The first is the form assumes the recipient is incomptent to manage their own money. The second is the form is fill in the blank "Explain why the claimant is not able to handle his/her own benefits."

Social Security has no way of tracking that data without having a human being go through all 4.2 million requests by hand - which isn't going to happen. So SSA doesn't know who has a Representative Payee because it is physically difficult to get to the bank, who has a Representative Payee because they are using a Revocable Living Trust for estate purposes, or who has a Representative Payee because they are crazy and a danger to themselves or others.

Because SSA doesn't track that information, they are discussing adding anyone with a Representative Payee to the denial list for NICS, regardless of their mental competence.
 
you go on record as not being able to handle your own affairs and need someone to do it for you, and not due to a medical illness, you May get flagged.

"If you go on record" that's the big deal, and who makes it "the record". I have arthritis in my feet - that's my disability but SSD MADE me have a representative. Someone in some cubicle says you need a rep and that's ok? That's the problem I have.
 
"If they aren't capable of handling their own business, they probably couldn't fill out the forms needed to buy one from a FFL or the ability to coherently look for a private seller in a free state where they both should be living."
Don't discount your opinion so readily, as what you've said here could very well be the truth for a large number of these folks. But I'm glad you realized that that is not the issue here; it's that whether or not these folks should not have guns or not, extra-judicial mechanism described so far is not how we debar our citizens' rights in this country. I'd much rather the administration do the honest thing here (ha!) and propose legislation to do what they desire, since that would be going through the proper channels (and even then, it would likely entail some sort of mandatory review of mental health when SSD folks file for a fiduciary, to determine if that status truly does warrant their disarmament).

What I'm saying is, to play Devil's Advocate; if we are going to try to restrict people pre-emptively based on lists, it makes sense to inspect someone filing for fiduciaries for mental competency, because the act of doing this is an indicator they are unable to perform a basic function required of society (paying your own bills). It is not unlikely at all that they would require the fiduciary because they are mentally incompetent, or soon to be so (senility).

That said, the way to add that additional screening, if we truly think it has value, is to pass a law which adds it into the Social Security processes; not dictating it by pure fiat. I thought the Federal Register Act makes a move like this --which clearly creates a new process within government, and also impacts a large number of people, and also entails an expensive appeals process-- completely illegal. At best, you could argue it is a new, sweeping regulation, and put it up for (extended) public comment. You can't just 'implement' stuff this widespread just because you know the victims won't/can't fight back.

Sadly, I think that much like the ITAR changes coming soon, this is an issue too difficult to explain to get people to oppose in numbers. By the time you explain what a fiduciary is, they've lost interest (same hurdle as explaining what a 'defense article' is). Our representatives will for sure never have any interest in learning what they need to oppose here, so they'll be of no help. This is why these regulatory approaches are so dangerous; they are so Kafkaesque/Byzantine/etc. that there is no way to properly frame the problem for widespread opposition.

"The pinnacle of strategy approaches the formless: if it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it nor the wise make plans against it.”

I think the only real solution, if there is one, is to start passing (after '16) laws which prohibit broad swathes of government regulators (as in entire agencies outside the court system) from making determinations regarding firearms disability or mental incompetence. However, I doubt there is much appetite for such sanity anymore.

TCB
 
"SSD MADE me have a representative"
I think this is the aforementioned 'deal with the devil.' Having to claim a disability you don't have (the inability to manage your affairs) in order to collect for your actual disability. I know not why they would pressure people to represent themselves as unable to conduct their own affairs, but it may be the same tactics used to illicit pleas from criminals. Going on record to claim a disability (any sort, to be honest) invites some doubt regarding your overall competency, even in spite of the ADA and common decency. Going further to then say you can also not manage your own affairs practically begs doubt of your competency.

The part I don't understand is what motivation the SSA would have for getting people to agree to this, if not to later on treat them as incompetent for myriad purposes (medical, legal, etc.). It sounds a lot like pressuring people into submitting to a power of attorney.

TCB
 
"SSD MADE me have a representative"
I think this is the aforementioned 'deal with the devil.' Having to claim a disability you don't have (the inability to manage your affairs) in order to collect for your actual disability. I know not why they would pressure people to represent themselves as unable to conduct their own affairs, but it may be the same tactics used to illicit pleas from criminals. Going on record to claim a disability (any sort, to be honest) invites some doubt regarding your overall competency, even in spite of the ADA and common decency. Going further to then say you can also not manage your own affairs practically begs doubt of your competency.

The part I don't understand is what motivation the SSA would have for getting people to agree to this, if not to later on treat them as incompetent for myriad purposes (medical, legal, etc.). It sounds a lot like pressuring people into submitting to a power of attorney.

TCB
There are a number of lawyers whose primary practice is SS Disability. The process of applying for SS disability is not simple and often means applying, getting denied, and appealing the denial to an administrative judge before getting approval. For anyone without legal experience, the process is daunting so enter the SSD attorney. The good ones will most often get your disability approved, but it may not be the disability you thought you were claiming. And getting the condition of record changed to the correct condition is even more daunting.

Unfortunately, there are some conditions that will win approval faster than others, and Depression (a mental disability) seems to be the favorite.
 
VA performed the same injustice to thousands of our vets. Just because someone can't add or balance a check book does not provide any indication that they cannot own a firearm, none the less function in society. The nonsensical excuse used by VA, and potentially the SSA, is that is someone whom cannot manage their finances must be deemed incompetent when it comes to the 2nd amendment yet, not when it comes to having a driver’s license, ability to work, vote, etc., just the 2nd amendment.:scrutiny:
 
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I would like to see what measure is used to deem someone, who has a representative payee, as incompetent to meet the prohibition category. SSA can’t therefore; it will be 4.2 million put into NICS. What about flagging them to the DMV? If their logic stands, someone who cannot handle their monetary affairs alone must be incapable of keeping their remaining rights.
 
A piece at a time, they add to the prohibited persons list.

A little here....


A little there.....


The Doctor now asks....


The Teachers ask the kids.....

Grandpa's guns get confiscated, because the guns were the last of everyone's concern and were still in his possession....
 
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