FTR, I do think heroism should be based on what you do, rather than what is done to you, and its a very reasonable thing to question the difference in treatment of the two soldiers. It was mostly the "ungrateful" thing that annoyed me.
Soldier in Jessica Lynch's unit awarded Silver Star - includes details of the ambush
- Thread starter Preacherman
- Start date
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Cosmoline
Member
Keep in mind that Lynch herself had almost nothing to do with any of the mythmaking. The myths were born when she was in the hospital, and she's kept real quiet about the whole thing since then. What cracks me up is how the same media that created the "Saving Pvt. Lynch" legend for its own benefit now makes a big stink about how it's just a myth!! It's surreal--like Dan Rather complaining one night about how Dan Rather had lied to us the night before 
w4rma
member
Sergeant Bob, big media was used by the Bush misadministration who in turn is trying to pay off big media by relaxing media conglomeration controls through the FCC, among other methods. If folks want to support the Bush misadministration despite this, then that's their own ethics/morals and opinions.
But, I'm not going to sit by while folks smear Lynch (who actually saw battle, was a POW in Iraq and who is trying to set the record straight about what went down there, much to the WH propagandists' disdain) to try to protect the scumball AWOL politician in the White House.
DefenseWatch "The Voice of the Grunt"
08-26-2003
Hack's Target
Using Private Lynch
By David H. Hackworth
Pfc. Jessica Lynch recently was awarded a Bronze Star Medal, a Purple Heart and the POW Medal. The BSM citation reads: “For exemplary courage under fire during combat operations to liberate Iraq, in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Private First Class Lynch's bravery and heart persevered while surviving in the ambush and captivity in An Nasiriya.â€
A BSM for “bravery†and “surviving in the ambush and captivityâ€!
The Army's official After-Action Report said she was in a vehicle that crashed while hauling butt trying to escape an enemy ambush. She was knocked unconscious and woke up at a nearby Iraqi hospital receiving special attention from some super-caring Iraqi doctors and nurses.
This was probably the first incident in U.S. military history in which an American soldier was awarded our country’s fourth-highest ground-fighting award for being conked out and off the air throughout a fight.
BSMs citing bravery typically read: “Moving his machine gun to a forward vantage point, he covered the advance of the infantry with a heavy volume of effective fire. Repeatedly exposing himself to a devastating small-arms automatic weapons and mortar barrage …. †Or: “(He) voluntarily acted as point man and ... when the platoon was fired upon ... charged the (enemy) position .... Through his courage, determination and devotion to duty, he saved his patrol from suffering casualties and captured a prisoner who later provided important information.â€
It’s no big surprise that I’ve been bombarded by thousands of angry e-mails from vets protesting this assault on our country’s sacred award system.
“She wasn’t wounded in action, nor did she do anything to deserve a Bronze Star,†writes Arch McNeill. “We have hundreds of valiant soldiers here in the 3rd Division who far more deserve more than she received but in many cases didn’t receive anything.â€
“I'm going to send all my awards back to the president and tell him where he can shove them,†says a genuine war hero, Jack Speed, a former Army Raider.
Trust me, the troops – past and present – are unhappy.
So I rang the Pentagon and asked Col. Jeff Keane, “Why the bravery bit?†Finally, when the standard Army propaganda drill wasn’t going down, Keane told me, “It was for her bravery in the hospital.â€
But all this flimflam wasn’t Jessica Lynch’s doing. She was used right from the first – a frail prop in the Pentagon’s public-relations campaign to sell the war to the American people and to encourage their daughters to join up and be heroes.
To keep the truth under wraps, the Army concocted another whopper: “She suffers from amnesia.â€
A senior officer from V Corps (the unit that eventually awarded her the BSM), who has asked to remain anonymous, comments that there was “tremendous pressure right from the get-go to award Pvt. Lynch a Silver Star. But the high brass here concluded, ‘There was no evidence of heroism on her part,’ and told the pushers to back off.â€
But when the propagandists conned the highly respected Washington Post into reporting on how Lynch was shot and stabbed but continued to kill Iraqis until her last round was spent, heroic stuff that would make Audie Murphy look like a slacker – which the Post then took several months to correct – other media were fast to pick up the fairy tale, and the Army was besieged by proud Americans demanding that Jessica be awarded the Medal of Honor.
Of course, many of us now know that a high-priced flack in Tommy Frank’s headquarters came up with this tall tale and then duped the Post.
According to retired Marine Lt. Col. Roger Charles: “There’s nothing they won’t stoop to spin. The Army needed a female hero to boost female recruiting and PR efforts, so they went and invented one.â€
And that’s the root of the problem. The elevation of Jessica to Joan of Arc status is to recruit more women, even though thousands of female soldiers couldn’t deploy with their units to Iraq because of pregnancy, no sitters for single moms’ multiple kids and other problems.
And poor Jessica Lynch has become the unwitting poster girl for an Army of One that’s fast becoming an Army of Two – since apparently more than half of the women deployed to Iraq are now pregnant.
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/...mand=viewone&op=t&id=31&rnd=714.3621314009687
But, I'm not going to sit by while folks smear Lynch (who actually saw battle, was a POW in Iraq and who is trying to set the record straight about what went down there, much to the WH propagandists' disdain) to try to protect the scumball AWOL politician in the White House.
DefenseWatch "The Voice of the Grunt"
08-26-2003
Hack's Target
Using Private Lynch
By David H. Hackworth
Pfc. Jessica Lynch recently was awarded a Bronze Star Medal, a Purple Heart and the POW Medal. The BSM citation reads: “For exemplary courage under fire during combat operations to liberate Iraq, in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Private First Class Lynch's bravery and heart persevered while surviving in the ambush and captivity in An Nasiriya.â€
A BSM for “bravery†and “surviving in the ambush and captivityâ€!
The Army's official After-Action Report said she was in a vehicle that crashed while hauling butt trying to escape an enemy ambush. She was knocked unconscious and woke up at a nearby Iraqi hospital receiving special attention from some super-caring Iraqi doctors and nurses.
This was probably the first incident in U.S. military history in which an American soldier was awarded our country’s fourth-highest ground-fighting award for being conked out and off the air throughout a fight.
BSMs citing bravery typically read: “Moving his machine gun to a forward vantage point, he covered the advance of the infantry with a heavy volume of effective fire. Repeatedly exposing himself to a devastating small-arms automatic weapons and mortar barrage …. †Or: “(He) voluntarily acted as point man and ... when the platoon was fired upon ... charged the (enemy) position .... Through his courage, determination and devotion to duty, he saved his patrol from suffering casualties and captured a prisoner who later provided important information.â€
It’s no big surprise that I’ve been bombarded by thousands of angry e-mails from vets protesting this assault on our country’s sacred award system.
“She wasn’t wounded in action, nor did she do anything to deserve a Bronze Star,†writes Arch McNeill. “We have hundreds of valiant soldiers here in the 3rd Division who far more deserve more than she received but in many cases didn’t receive anything.â€
“I'm going to send all my awards back to the president and tell him where he can shove them,†says a genuine war hero, Jack Speed, a former Army Raider.
Trust me, the troops – past and present – are unhappy.
So I rang the Pentagon and asked Col. Jeff Keane, “Why the bravery bit?†Finally, when the standard Army propaganda drill wasn’t going down, Keane told me, “It was for her bravery in the hospital.â€
But all this flimflam wasn’t Jessica Lynch’s doing. She was used right from the first – a frail prop in the Pentagon’s public-relations campaign to sell the war to the American people and to encourage their daughters to join up and be heroes.
To keep the truth under wraps, the Army concocted another whopper: “She suffers from amnesia.â€
A senior officer from V Corps (the unit that eventually awarded her the BSM), who has asked to remain anonymous, comments that there was “tremendous pressure right from the get-go to award Pvt. Lynch a Silver Star. But the high brass here concluded, ‘There was no evidence of heroism on her part,’ and told the pushers to back off.â€
But when the propagandists conned the highly respected Washington Post into reporting on how Lynch was shot and stabbed but continued to kill Iraqis until her last round was spent, heroic stuff that would make Audie Murphy look like a slacker – which the Post then took several months to correct – other media were fast to pick up the fairy tale, and the Army was besieged by proud Americans demanding that Jessica be awarded the Medal of Honor.
Of course, many of us now know that a high-priced flack in Tommy Frank’s headquarters came up with this tall tale and then duped the Post.
According to retired Marine Lt. Col. Roger Charles: “There’s nothing they won’t stoop to spin. The Army needed a female hero to boost female recruiting and PR efforts, so they went and invented one.â€
And that’s the root of the problem. The elevation of Jessica to Joan of Arc status is to recruit more women, even though thousands of female soldiers couldn’t deploy with their units to Iraq because of pregnancy, no sitters for single moms’ multiple kids and other problems.
And poor Jessica Lynch has become the unwitting poster girl for an Army of One that’s fast becoming an Army of Two – since apparently more than half of the women deployed to Iraq are now pregnant.
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/...mand=viewone&op=t&id=31&rnd=714.3621314009687
Hackworth:
Methinks he doth protest too much. Everybody who has been thru the quagmire that is the army knows the guy who did the job seldom gets the medal. It's the rear area commander who usually gets the big award while the guy who does the work is lucky to get diddly.
Methinks he doth protest too much. Everybody who has been thru the quagmire that is the army knows the guy who did the job seldom gets the medal. It's the rear area commander who usually gets the big award while the guy who does the work is lucky to get diddly.
w4rma
member
And you are happy with this current situation, since you don't seem to be interested in fixing it at all, correct BigG? Anyway, the corrupt award system was only one point that Hackworth made in his editorial.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Why aren't I surprised that w4rma would have to resort to using a literal pimp (Hackworth), in order to turn this topic into a Bush-bashing session?
As reported by that right-wing bastion, Slate
:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2381/sidebar/51012/
Kind of like his assault on the same system, e.g. by claiming Ranger tabs and so forth that he never earned?
As reported by that right-wing bastion, Slate
:http://slate.msn.com/id/2381/sidebar/51012/
Kind of like his assault on the same system, e.g. by claiming Ranger tabs and so forth that he never earned?
w4rma
member
Bush bash. Is that all you see? You don't see the problems being caused for Americans? You just see a "Bush bash"?
Where's the BS, BigG? Point it out, specifically. Or is everything that is a "Bush bash" BS, IYO?
Don't criticize the folks running the government as long as the Republican Party is in control, eh?
Where's the BS, BigG? Point it out, specifically. Or is everything that is a "Bush bash" BS, IYO?
Don't criticize the folks running the government as long as the Republican Party is in control, eh?
Originally posted by Barbara:
"The young woman was severly injured, held as a prisoner of war, and on top of that was raped and sodomized while serving her country."
With all due respect Madam, that's the fault of Femenists and left wing polititians. I'm sorry this happened to her, but she simply should not have been there. Women do not belong in a combat enviornment, period!! They should be safe, back here at home, not in country where these things can happen.
Thank God for brave young men like PFC Miller !!
Semper Fi, GySgt
"The young woman was severly injured, held as a prisoner of war, and on top of that was raped and sodomized while serving her country."
With all due respect Madam, that's the fault of Femenists and left wing polititians. I'm sorry this happened to her, but she simply should not have been there. Women do not belong in a combat enviornment, period!! They should be safe, back here at home, not in country where these things can happen.
Thank God for brave young men like PFC Miller !!
Semper Fi, GySgt
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Reconcile these statements at your leisure. And please, by all means provide links to other pimps you use as "credible" sources.
w4rma
member
On sources. IMHO, folks need to be careful about discounting all "news" sources except those that are owned by either Rev. Moon (Washington Times, UPI, Newsmax) or Rupert Murdoch (NY Post, FOX News, The Weekly Standard). Discounting other sources means that *they* decide what "news" you get…and don't get.
Moon Shadow
With Help From Congressional Republicans And The Bush 'Faith-Based' Initiative, Controversial Korean Evangelist Sun Myung Moon Is Trying To Expand His Religious-Political Empire
…
Reading further, they would have found out that the ALC is a project of the American Family Coalition and The Washington Times Foundation – both front organizations for the Rev. Sun Myung Moon, a controversial Korean evangelist and founder of the Unification Church. The "faith-based summit" itself was sponsored by Watts (R-Okla.), Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and other top congressional Republicans, but efforts to promote it at the grassroots level were turned over to a Moon organization.
…
http://www.au.org/churchstate/cs6013.htm
HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
July 10, 2003
Neo – CONNED !
…
In addition to publications, multiple think tanks and projects were created to promote their agenda. A product of the Bradley Foundation, the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) led the neocon charge, but the real push for war came from the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) another organization helped by the Bradley Foundation. This occurred in 1998 and was chaired by Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol. They urged early on for war against Iraq, but were disappointed with the Clinton administration, which never followed through with its periodic bombings. Obviously, these bombings were motivated more by Clinton’s personal and political problems than a belief in the neocon agenda.
…
The money and views of Rupert Murdoch also played a key role in promoting the neocon views, as well as rallying support by the general population, through his News Corporation, which owns Fox News Network, the New York Post, and Weekly Standard. This powerful and influential media empire did more to galvanize public support for the Iraqi invasion than one might imagine. This facilitated the Rumsfeld/Cheney policy as their plans to attack Iraq came to fruition. It would have been difficult for the neocons to usurp foreign policy from the restraints of Colin Powell’s State Department without the successful agitation of the Rupert Murdoch empire. Max Boot was satisfied, as he explained: “Neoconservatives believe in using American might to promote American ideals abroad.†This attitude is a far cry from the advice of the Founders, who advocated no entangling alliances and neutrality as the proper goal of American foreign policy.
…
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2003/cr071003.htm
Moon Shadow
With Help From Congressional Republicans And The Bush 'Faith-Based' Initiative, Controversial Korean Evangelist Sun Myung Moon Is Trying To Expand His Religious-Political Empire
…
Reading further, they would have found out that the ALC is a project of the American Family Coalition and The Washington Times Foundation – both front organizations for the Rev. Sun Myung Moon, a controversial Korean evangelist and founder of the Unification Church. The "faith-based summit" itself was sponsored by Watts (R-Okla.), Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and other top congressional Republicans, but efforts to promote it at the grassroots level were turned over to a Moon organization.
…
http://www.au.org/churchstate/cs6013.htm
HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
July 10, 2003
Neo – CONNED !
…
In addition to publications, multiple think tanks and projects were created to promote their agenda. A product of the Bradley Foundation, the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) led the neocon charge, but the real push for war came from the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) another organization helped by the Bradley Foundation. This occurred in 1998 and was chaired by Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol. They urged early on for war against Iraq, but were disappointed with the Clinton administration, which never followed through with its periodic bombings. Obviously, these bombings were motivated more by Clinton’s personal and political problems than a belief in the neocon agenda.
…
The money and views of Rupert Murdoch also played a key role in promoting the neocon views, as well as rallying support by the general population, through his News Corporation, which owns Fox News Network, the New York Post, and Weekly Standard. This powerful and influential media empire did more to galvanize public support for the Iraqi invasion than one might imagine. This facilitated the Rumsfeld/Cheney policy as their plans to attack Iraq came to fruition. It would have been difficult for the neocons to usurp foreign policy from the restraints of Colin Powell’s State Department without the successful agitation of the Rupert Murdoch empire. Max Boot was satisfied, as he explained: “Neoconservatives believe in using American might to promote American ideals abroad.†This attitude is a far cry from the advice of the Founders, who advocated no entangling alliances and neutrality as the proper goal of American foreign policy.
…
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2003/cr071003.htm
D'oh. You seem to want to create a political football out of this situation w4rma. I thought we were just discussing the BS level of army award citations. Not only that but the (prostitute) news media who is ever willing to create news now is finger pointing that it has been duped? For shame! And you are indignant that the news lied to you or misinformed you? Call me jaded but I expect them to lie. 
And you are indignant that the news lied to you or misinformed you? Call me jaded but I expect them to lie. Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Nice bit of misdirection on your part, except we were talking about your use of literal (not figurative) pimps as sources to "prove" your point.
Eyeless
Member
My bona fides:
I served 9.5 years in the U.S. Army, 1965-1975. I began as an E-1. I left as an 0-3. Direct commission. Two tours, less 10 days, in Nam.
I was Infantry, Field Artillery and Air Defense Artillery (nukes).
I was awarded all the be-there buttons, a CIB, three Purple Hearts, one Bronze Star and one Silver Star.
I was given a medical discharge and am now rated 160% permanent disability through the VA System.
Been there. Done that.
My thoughts:
The Silver Star is nothing to sneeze at. You don't get one for passing gas in a wind storm.
The M-16, in any incarnation, was designed as a jungle weapon. It started out as crap and was modified into a pretty good JUNGLE weapon. It was not intended for desert warfare. Neither was the double stack pistol magazine, but that's a different post (future).
The actions of the young man are commendable, to say the least. He did his job and much more. He earned the medal awarded.
While on active duty, he cannot accept any outside monies for his actions. His family can.
The actions of the young woman are questionable. Her, self stated, actions do not warrant a medal of any sort. What happened to her has become gist for the media and the Army PR machine. This is unfortunate for the Country, for her and for us.
The fact that she is making money off her story does not bother me at all. After all, this is the U. S. of A.
If you disagree with the present leadership of the country, quityerbitchin'. It becomes tiresome.
I served 9.5 years in the U.S. Army, 1965-1975. I began as an E-1. I left as an 0-3. Direct commission. Two tours, less 10 days, in Nam.
I was Infantry, Field Artillery and Air Defense Artillery (nukes).
I was awarded all the be-there buttons, a CIB, three Purple Hearts, one Bronze Star and one Silver Star.
I was given a medical discharge and am now rated 160% permanent disability through the VA System.
Been there. Done that.
My thoughts:
The Silver Star is nothing to sneeze at. You don't get one for passing gas in a wind storm.
The M-16, in any incarnation, was designed as a jungle weapon. It started out as crap and was modified into a pretty good JUNGLE weapon. It was not intended for desert warfare. Neither was the double stack pistol magazine, but that's a different post (future).
The actions of the young man are commendable, to say the least. He did his job and much more. He earned the medal awarded.
While on active duty, he cannot accept any outside monies for his actions. His family can.
The actions of the young woman are questionable. Her, self stated, actions do not warrant a medal of any sort. What happened to her has become gist for the media and the Army PR machine. This is unfortunate for the Country, for her and for us.
The fact that she is making money off her story does not bother me at all. After all, this is the U. S. of A.
If you disagree with the present leadership of the country, quityerbitchin'. It becomes tiresome.
w4rma
member
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.â€
--Theodore Roosevelt, 1918
“Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country.â€
--Theodore Roosevelt
Thanks for the article Peter!
I actually think the whole J.L thing is an obvious offshoot of an over-publicised war. The idea that she had fought back came from intercepted radio transmissions and the media went off the deep end before it could be confirmed.
Then....like always...it is easier to let her stay a heroine than to show eveyone else to be a moron that doesn't check their facts.
A little lag time goes a long way towards accuracy...we didn't have much lag thanks to all the embedded journalists.
So...
Celebrate Pvt. Miller's heroism...that is actually what this thread is about!
Ignore the J.L. B.s...she is not the first overhyped "shooting star"
Stop feeding the media frenzy and she will fade from view.
And stop trying to blame the ills of the whole world on GWB.
Please!
I actually think the whole J.L thing is an obvious offshoot of an over-publicised war. The idea that she had fought back came from intercepted radio transmissions and the media went off the deep end before it could be confirmed.
Then....like always...it is easier to let her stay a heroine than to show eveyone else to be a moron that doesn't check their facts.
A little lag time goes a long way towards accuracy...we didn't have much lag thanks to all the embedded journalists.
So...
Celebrate Pvt. Miller's heroism...that is actually what this thread is about!
Ignore the J.L. B.s...she is not the first overhyped "shooting star"
Stop feeding the media frenzy and she will fade from view.
And stop trying to blame the ills of the whole world on GWB.
Please!
Thank you for intervening in the thread, Correia. I'm usually all for bashing liberals and defending MOST of Bush's actions but this is neither the time or place. People need to put the political infighting aside and remember that Pfc. Millers family could use a nice donation from all of us. In other words, stow the rancor and be thankful we have soldiers like Miller defending us. Thanks...
Michael Miller in Sandy, Oregon/Owner of IronWolf Industries
Michael Miller in Sandy, Oregon/Owner of IronWolf Industries
medal rank
The Distiguished Service Medal is not an award for valor. Army can award (for Valor) in ascending order:, ARCOM w/V, Air Medal, Bronze Star w/V, Distinguished Flying Cross,Silver Star, Distiiguished Service Cross, and Medal of Honor. Other awards are for service ie: JSCM,MSM, Legion of Merit and DSM etc. etc.
The Distiguished Service Medal is not an award for valor. Army can award (for Valor) in ascending order:, ARCOM w/V, Air Medal, Bronze Star w/V, Distinguished Flying Cross,Silver Star, Distiiguished Service Cross, and Medal of Honor. Other awards are for service ie: JSCM,MSM, Legion of Merit and DSM etc. etc.
voilsb
Member
I'm having trouble finding it with google ... does anyone know how I might go about finding the complete text of PFC Miller's Silver Star citation?
Stealth101
Member
Private Miller....
Whats happening with the fund to help out the Miller family and to say thanks to a real hero? I would like to contribute.......I live in Colorado but a few hours away from the base....
Whats happening with the fund to help out the Miller family and to say thanks to a real hero? I would like to contribute.......I live in Colorado but a few hours away from the base....
Hey Stealth... You seem to be the closest one here to where Pvt. Millers family is located. Would you be able to get their address so that folks on the forum could get them some funds? I don't want to put you on the spot, but my mom's friend of a friend in the VA has not been able to get any more information and if we had a contact on the ground in Colorado we could get this going soon. Let us know if you are interested in helping...
Michael in Sandy, Oregon/Owner of IronWolf Industries
Michael in Sandy, Oregon/Owner of IronWolf Industries
Stealth101
Member
Private Miller
Ironfist....I will do my best tomorrow to see what I can find out!
Ironfist....I will do my best tomorrow to see what I can find out!
- Status
