It's funny how people don't like to collect historical artifacts because they were from a 'evil' empire. You can't just destroy history. My mom's boyfriend collects WWII stuff. Tonight he showed me a couple German helmets he picked up at flea markets as a kid. One still had a logo on the side. Very nice pieces of history. He also had many American helmets from WWI, WWII, and Korea.
Some really expensive Mauser 98's...
- Thread starter Slater
- Start date
- Status
As far as I am concerned a gun is just a gun, but some of the comments about people being just a German soldier are laughable. The Wehrmacht committed many attrocities especially in the east. Nazi soldiers have nothing to be proud of, and a lot to be ashamed of. The VAST majority of Germans were Nazis and supported the Reich, anything else is pure fantasy, I have seen the pictures and documentation. The only reason the were allowed of the hook so easily was due to the communist menace.
So what is a reasonable price for a nice YUGO M48?
Pdog
So what is a reasonable price for a nice YUGO M48?
Pdog
jefnvk
Member
PDog, saying that all the soldiers that were fighting were diehard Nazis is a little far-fetched. I would believe that the VAST majority of them were fighting for their homeland. You are right to say that they comitted atrocities. What do you think would happen if they told Hitler they would not fight for him?
As for the M48, I don't think that $300 is unreasonable for a new rifle. Probably should be more around the low $200's, but if people are willin gto pay $300, then I guess that's what it is worth. What I have a problem with is them trying to push it off as a WWII collectable. I knew when I bought my M48 that there wasn't much collectable value to it, but I wanted a shooter rifle (I actually only paid $80, but it isn't near as nice as the high grade ones)
As for the M48, I don't think that $300 is unreasonable for a new rifle. Probably should be more around the low $200's, but if people are willin gto pay $300, then I guess that's what it is worth. What I have a problem with is them trying to push it off as a WWII collectable. I knew when I bought my M48 that there wasn't much collectable value to it, but I wanted a shooter rifle (I actually only paid $80, but it isn't near as nice as the high grade ones)
Even assuming that they were ALL evil baby-killing monsters, the fact remains that we won, they lost, and now we can now place all their old rifles into AMERICAN closets to remind us of that victory.
How many innexpensive Garands do you think find their way into German gun safes? I'm betting, not many.
Ash
Member
Well, Antibubba does have a point. Let us not attack him too much for sentiments. Let's face it, if that were a Czech-made 98 sniper in equal condition also used during the war but with no special markings, it would be worth 10%. Come on, to thine own self be true. That sniper is priced so high because of the SS/Deathshead connection. And, it is verneration. Is it Nazi-worship? I doubt it, but the fact remains that the extra $8,000 comes from it being a Nazi SS tool, not a fine rifle of an excellent design in wonderful condition carried by noble soldiers forced to fight for an evil regime.
Now, I would never own it for that price, but if it were given to me, I would add it to my collection as the SS causes no fear or loathing for me. I would not own an executioners sword and in like fashion would not own some of the famous weapons used in murders throughout the year that appear from time to time. Remember that Colt Woodsman that was used in some infamous murder that came up for sale this year?
But, it is pretty obtuse to say "I'd pay $10,000 for that fine rifle of excellent workmanship, not because it was carried by a soldier in the SS." Indeed, if we were to discover it was used by Concentration Camp guards, how would that affect the price? In either case, call a spade a spade. The Antibubba is right that the rifle gains its value from the notoriety of its provenance. If we can't acknowledge that, then perhaps there are those of us who are troubled by their fascination?
Would I be so extreme as to destroy history? No. Yet it is amazing the veneration towards Nazi items that does not exist towards others.
Davis
Now, I would never own it for that price, but if it were given to me, I would add it to my collection as the SS causes no fear or loathing for me. I would not own an executioners sword and in like fashion would not own some of the famous weapons used in murders throughout the year that appear from time to time. Remember that Colt Woodsman that was used in some infamous murder that came up for sale this year?
But, it is pretty obtuse to say "I'd pay $10,000 for that fine rifle of excellent workmanship, not because it was carried by a soldier in the SS." Indeed, if we were to discover it was used by Concentration Camp guards, how would that affect the price? In either case, call a spade a spade. The Antibubba is right that the rifle gains its value from the notoriety of its provenance. If we can't acknowledge that, then perhaps there are those of us who are troubled by their fascination?
Would I be so extreme as to destroy history? No. Yet it is amazing the veneration towards Nazi items that does not exist towards others.
Davis
Ash, I'll assume you aren't living in a vacuum.
Because you oversimplify the high price of Nazi Mausers, calling it veneration.
I would invite you to head over to www.simpsonltd.com and view the Imperial German (pre WWII, and pre-Nazi) Lugers offered for sale there.
Your next place to visit would be www.scott-duff.com - take a look at the historic US martial arms he has listed, and note the prices seen on those items. No Death's Head on any of those.
A small place called www.treasurehuntarms.com also lists rare military firearms, which (again) command a high price.
I watched a 1903A4 sniper, like mine above, go for $4K on www.gunsamerica.com not too long ago. Where is the Nazi veneration there?
I've also got a U.S. Krag rifle with a serial number that places it in the Philippines during the 1899-1902 Insurrection. It's a family heirloom, and someday I'll actually have the appraisal finished, once I update my USAA guns rider.
Japanese buyers have been paying top dollar for samurai swords that were removed from Japan by occupying U.S. forces after WWII. Wanna guess what they're paying for them? (Hint, they're not SS-marked)
Obtuse? Hardly.
Because you oversimplify the high price of Nazi Mausers, calling it veneration.
I would invite you to head over to www.simpsonltd.com and view the Imperial German (pre WWII, and pre-Nazi) Lugers offered for sale there.
Your next place to visit would be www.scott-duff.com - take a look at the historic US martial arms he has listed, and note the prices seen on those items. No Death's Head on any of those.
A small place called www.treasurehuntarms.com also lists rare military firearms, which (again) command a high price.
I watched a 1903A4 sniper, like mine above, go for $4K on www.gunsamerica.com not too long ago. Where is the Nazi veneration there?
I've also got a U.S. Krag rifle with a serial number that places it in the Philippines during the 1899-1902 Insurrection. It's a family heirloom, and someday I'll actually have the appraisal finished, once I update my USAA guns rider.
Japanese buyers have been paying top dollar for samurai swords that were removed from Japan by occupying U.S. forces after WWII. Wanna guess what they're paying for them? (Hint, they're not SS-marked)
Obtuse? Hardly.
Bwana John
Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2004
- Messages
- 2,961
I would be pleased to own the tool of any enemy that I defeated. It is mine now, and it gives me even more pleasure because it used to be his.
Last edited:
Ash
Member
I by no means live in a vacuum and have been collecting for a very long time. I have sunk large sums into many things, including bladed weapons from the 1700's, flintlocks, lever-actions, bolt actions, etc.
But what I said is a fact. I'll assume you don't live in a vacuum, either. There are two realms of the collector. One, who respects the machine for what it is, a thing of precision and capability. That collector pays for an item based on condition, historical use, etc. That collector does not pay inordinate ammounts for the item. The common Cruffler fits into that category.
Then you have veneration and deep respect. That is what drives the truly high-priced items. It is silly to say that somebody would pay $10,000 for a Mauser based on its merits as a fighting arm. $4,000 like your Springfield, perhaps. But ten grand is 250% more than that Springfield, which is pretty pricey. But a Mauser generally isn't worth that much. And there are Finnish sniper rifles much rarer with just as much historical context that do not command that premium, so you cannot say it is merely because it is a rare rifle. I would pay $2,000 if I could find the Springfield 03 of a certain serial number carried by my great uncle carried during the war. Does that make the rifle a $2,000 rifle? Only to me because of the veneration I hold for him. Certainly you can see this. Why are Nazi swords are so faked and real ones command so much money when they are little more than costume jewelry? Why is it they bring more than cutlasses or sabres carried during the Napoleonic wars? It certainly isn't rarity.
Now, I am not attacking the items themselves. For that matter, I do not attack in this case, period. Indeed, I don't really care. I merely call a spade a spade.
Ash
But what I said is a fact. I'll assume you don't live in a vacuum, either. There are two realms of the collector. One, who respects the machine for what it is, a thing of precision and capability. That collector pays for an item based on condition, historical use, etc. That collector does not pay inordinate ammounts for the item. The common Cruffler fits into that category.
Then you have veneration and deep respect. That is what drives the truly high-priced items. It is silly to say that somebody would pay $10,000 for a Mauser based on its merits as a fighting arm. $4,000 like your Springfield, perhaps. But ten grand is 250% more than that Springfield, which is pretty pricey. But a Mauser generally isn't worth that much. And there are Finnish sniper rifles much rarer with just as much historical context that do not command that premium, so you cannot say it is merely because it is a rare rifle. I would pay $2,000 if I could find the Springfield 03 of a certain serial number carried by my great uncle carried during the war. Does that make the rifle a $2,000 rifle? Only to me because of the veneration I hold for him. Certainly you can see this. Why are Nazi swords are so faked and real ones command so much money when they are little more than costume jewelry? Why is it they bring more than cutlasses or sabres carried during the Napoleonic wars? It certainly isn't rarity.
Now, I am not attacking the items themselves. For that matter, I do not attack in this case, period. Indeed, I don't really care. I merely call a spade a spade.
Ash
Ash, I repeat...
You're reading too much into it. It isn't strictly a Nazi veneration or worship thing.
Take a look at this 1902 American Eagle Luger. It's listed for $15K:
Is there $15K worth of steel and wood in that pistol? No. But it's collectible, to the tune of $15,000, without being a Nazi relic, or signifying a certain regime.
Here's another Pre-Nazi variant that's "only" $11,500:
BTW, lots of P-08 Lugers were made by DWM, a Mauser subsidiary. So there's your high-priced Mauser. Now, if that's too high a price for a non-Nazi item, here's an M1 Carbine for the bargain price of $4,000:
Is it veneration, worship, or just plain collectible? A 1965 Shelby Mustang GT-350 sold new for $4,547 out the door. The colonel I work with has one, and has recently refused an offer for $70,000. How does one attribute that?
It's what the market will bear. If Mitchell's Mausers don't get the $10,000 they're asking for those SS Sniper K98's, they'll figure it out soon enough, and adjust their prices accordingly. And those who pay $10K for a WWII sniper rifle are really no different than those who pay exorbitant prices for collectibles like PEZ dispensers, Beanie Babies, Kit-Kat clocks, early muscle cars, grilled cheese sandwiches with the Virgin Mary's likeness, and guitars from deceased musicians.
You're reading too much into it. It isn't strictly a Nazi veneration or worship thing.
Take a look at this 1902 American Eagle Luger. It's listed for $15K:
Is there $15K worth of steel and wood in that pistol? No. But it's collectible, to the tune of $15,000, without being a Nazi relic, or signifying a certain regime.
Here's another Pre-Nazi variant that's "only" $11,500:
BTW, lots of P-08 Lugers were made by DWM, a Mauser subsidiary. So there's your high-priced Mauser. Now, if that's too high a price for a non-Nazi item, here's an M1 Carbine for the bargain price of $4,000:
Is it veneration, worship, or just plain collectible? A 1965 Shelby Mustang GT-350 sold new for $4,547 out the door. The colonel I work with has one, and has recently refused an offer for $70,000. How does one attribute that?
It's what the market will bear. If Mitchell's Mausers don't get the $10,000 they're asking for those SS Sniper K98's, they'll figure it out soon enough, and adjust their prices accordingly. And those who pay $10K for a WWII sniper rifle are really no different than those who pay exorbitant prices for collectibles like PEZ dispensers, Beanie Babies, Kit-Kat clocks, early muscle cars, grilled cheese sandwiches with the Virgin Mary's likeness, and guitars from deceased musicians.
Ash
Member
And no, I am not. As I stated, there are many reasons for purchasing. Rarity is but one as there are very, very rare firearms out there that don't bring near the cost. Do I think somebody who pays that amount loves National Socialism or thinks oft of the Master Race? Of course not. Yet, one does not pay that kind of money soley because of markings because they are going for the mechanical merit of the firearm. There is something beyond that.
Ash
Ash
Cosmoline
Member
There's some serious Mitchell inflation going on there. You can get marked K98k's for a fraction of that price elsewhere. If he can sell those Mitchell's a good salesman, that's for sure.
jefnvk
Member
The point is, that it is a rare collectible rifle IN DEMAND. I would think that there is a greater demand for a Mauser SS Sniper rifle, than a Finn Sniper. Those markings are what make it collectible. Market price is set by the consumer. If enough people want one of those, the price will go up. Simple economics.
They're still overpriced, IMHO.
They're still overpriced, IMHO.
The Third Reich continues to hold endless fascination for a lot of people, even though that particular nation lasted for all of, what, 12 years. A black SS uniform with sigrunes and death's head badges, regardless of what it stood for, probably stands out above most uniforms of that era (and probably today).
A whole collector universe is built around this stuff.
A whole collector universe is built around this stuff.
- Status
