Someone please 'splain something?

[nearlynormalmike]

Since I can't hit anything much with a handgun even worse than I used to not be able to hit anything, I have to decided to take up the modern sporting rifle.

I clearly haven't learned much about them but am trying. I started with an M&P Sport, but a friend wanted it more than I did so sold it. I then got and still have a Stag Arms which has worked out pretty well.

I traded some things for another M&P Sport today. I tried it out this afternoon and while it shoots great, it is WAY MUCH louder and kicks considerably more than the Stag, and from what I remember, my first Sport. I know Smith made a slight difference in the initial models and the newer ones, but not much.

Both the Stag and the Sport have the same model flash suppressor and both are carbine length gas systems. The Sport is used but I am pretty sure nothing internally was modified.

Why the difference? It is more than just a little!
Same batch of ammunition and it is .223, not 5.56.

It is too loud to shoot much and yes I wear proper hearing protectors. It kicks dang near as much as my 12 gauge pump. My shoulder would be hurting after a hundred rounds or so.

I can live with the recoil but is there anything I can do to quiet it down short of NFA suppressor?

 

[g.willikers]

Hmm,
Before getting to the part where they both have the same flash suppressor, it might have been that one had a muzzle brake.
But that's out.
Then maybe it could have been a difference in buffer/recoil springs that might account for some difference in recoil - but doubtful for that amount.
So, maybe there's something different with the gas systems??
What ever the cause turns out to be, it's going to be interesting to find out the answer.

 

[taliv]

assuming you are shooting in the same place (and not under a roof now or around objects that tend to reflect the sound back to you)

the noise and the kick aren't generally that correlated. noise complaints usually come from short barrels and brakes. 'kick' usually comes from being overgassed and under buffered/springed.

the gas ports may both be carbine length but they may not be the same diameter. a heavier buffer and spring won't change the laws of physics but they may change the recoil impulse so it is less annoying.

other than getting a longer barrel, or one of those 5" flash suppressors or something, or changing ammo, I'm not sure how you could make it quieter.

also, if you usually shoot in the same place, keep in mind the law against 'suppressors' only applies to those attached to the firearm. you can take a 5 gal bucket or number 10 can or something and line the inside with foam and mount it to your bench.

 

[jmr40]

A different flash hider could account for more noise. A different set of ear protection can make a difference too. Assuming equal weight rifles the recoil is going to be the same. Even with very different weight rifles there isn't enough recoil in 223 to really be noticeable. Loud noises fool the brain into thinking you're getting more recoil. I suspect it is actually a bit louder for any of the reasons listed above and it seem to recoil more

 

[newfalguy101]

If it hurts to shoot, I would look at the stock before anything else ( assuming both are 223's ).

The next thing I would look at is overall weight, just because they are both carbine length gas systems, doesn't mean they are the same configuration or weight.

 

[taliv]

i've shot some AR15 223s that recoiled enough that i refused to shoot them. people just threw the wrong collection of parts together. but you may be right that perception is a part of it

 

[nearlynormalmike]

I will try it again and hope the difference is perception rather than real. Maybe I ate something for lunch not compatible with AR shooting.

I really cannot imagine there is anything different on the rifles to account for the perceived difference, however my wife noticed it too. She was in the house about 1/4 mile away. I am fortunate enough to have a great place for my own range on "the back forty" (I can miss targets without leaving my property). She did however have the same thing as I had for lunch so....

I will try both rifles at the same time (not the exact time, but within a few minutes). I like the idea of rigging a permanent baffle to fit my shooting rest. I have thought about it before but didn't think it would really work so have never done it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks for the help. Isn't it great to have such a forum where people can help each other with problems. I don't post much but think we are lucky to have such a forum. I hear and read rumors of such activity concerning shooting sports being banned but I will not get into politics.

 

[Hammer059]

I'll let you shoot my New England single-shot 12 gauge with some 3" slugs and then tell me if your AR recoils much. I have owned two M&P Sports and the recoil was always very minimal. Maybe a fixed A2 style buttstock would make it more comfortable. Plus they look cooler.

It is definitely a loud rifle though, but so are most AR-15's. I always wear plugs AND muffs for any centerfire caliber, and I only shoot outdoors. I can't wait to get my suppressors...

 

[bikemutt]

One of my shooting buds bought a used SCAR rifle which he insisted I shoot. Well, this thing kicked like an old mule and is sure not what that particular rifle should feel like. It felt over-gassed to me. Sure enough the adjustable gas block setting was in the wrong position. Once that was corrected to rifle became much more polite.

I can't prove this but it seems to me a seriously under-gassed rifle could exhibit excessive felt recoil as well, the closer it comes to a fixed-breach rifle, the more likely the shooter is to feel the real McCoy, as in a bolt rifle.

Assuming similar barrel length, gas operating system lengths and muzzle devices, I'm at a loss to explain substantial sound level differences.

 

[chicharrones]

I will try it again and hope the difference is perception rather than real. Maybe I ate something for lunch not compatible with AR shooting.

It happens. Bad food, not enough water (dehydration), a little under the weather, lack of sleep, drank too much the night before, etc.

I've had days shooting 12 gauge shotguns where I felt drained and weak. The next time out with the same gun and loads, I felt hella strong.

Same thing with bolt action rifles. One day I'm out firing a .308 and I'm getting really pounded. On the way home, I notice my right arm is feeling numb. The next time out with the same gun and loads, I was right as rain.

I've had the same thing happen in sports, off road dirt bikes, you name it.

 

[taliv]

some people get carried away


there's a thread somewhere here from several years ago with pics of several of our members' doing something similar but far less extravagant, and also iirc a range in europe where every station had them

 

[nearlynormalmike]

NOW THERE IS AN OUTHOUSE WHAT IS AN OUTHOUSE.
You can poop and plink at the same time.

 

[CLP]

some people get carried away


there's a thread somewhere here from several years ago with pics of several of our members' doing something similar but far less extravagant, and also iirc a range in europe where every station had them

Looks like a smokehouse

 

[nearlynormalmike]

There is a lot emphasis on inhaling lead containing air and needing positive pressure indoor shooting ranges. I trust these shooting houses are properly vented and air filtered.

As for your offer Hammer059, I would love to put a few boxes of 3" slugs through your single shot 12, maybe some 3.5" but I unfortunately have an appointment that day and won't be available. Dang, bad luck.

 

[Inebriated]

It kicks dang near as much as my 12 gauge pump

It does not.

The Sport has a Semi-Auto carrier, which is lighter than the Full-Auto carrier that's likely in the Stag. The Sport also has a Carbine buffer... maybe the Stag has an H or heavier. The gas port on the Sport may be larger as well.

Lots of things can go into the felt recoil, including how you're holding the rifle.

 

[jmorris]

Get a good .22 lr. I don't think I have ever had my 50 BMG anywhere I did not also have an accurate .22.

If you can't shoot an accurate rifle accurately, it is you and not the gun. The .22 lr has almost no recoil and noise, taking one along as a "standard" to my testing.

If you "think" you are getting beat up you might as well be getting beat up and YOUR ability to do the shooters job will suffer.

Basicly you have to be able to maintain sight picture and preform trigger pull on both the same or results will suffer. From shooting for many decades, I can tell you it only takes a few rounds for me to develop bad habits like a blink or flinch with a real bruiser. If I think that is the case, I pick up an "old faithful" and shoot a good group then continue on.

 

[FireInCairo]

Just an observation, they're making a lot of pistols these days with awful, heavy triggers which make the muzzle move when pulled, which makes accuracy harder than it should be.

You may want to look into a trigger job before you give up on sportshooting a pistol. You will be surprised at how well a pistol with a proper trigger weight shoots.

 

[nearlynormalmike]

Thank you all for your support.

I have been shooting for a looong time and have tried many types of firearms, both handguns and long guns. People just have different abilities in different areas. Take Jerry Miculek for instance. He is on the far extreme of good. I am toward the other end.
Some athletes are better than others. Some professionals make many millions of dollars while other people can't get into a pickup game.

Sure training and the proper firearm make a difference but nothing can make up for natural abilities, or in my case, natural lack of abilities, at least in shooting or in professional athletics. It is just a fact of life with which I live. I just enjoy what I can do and am certainly not averse to helpful hints, but in the end it is just a hobby for me, not a profession. I am really not quite as bad as I complain about.

Thanks again. I enjoy a good forum discussion. I post little, but read a lot.

 

[redneck2]

Taliv...how does that thing thread onto the barrel?

 

[jmorris]

Taliv...how does that thing thread onto the barrel?

If it did, it would be the only building on a form 1.

 

[Lord Teapot]

something wrong with your ar15 if it feels like shooting a 12ga. i can fire my m&p15 with zero issues one handed, repeatedly, with almost no recoil. if i try that with any of my 12ga shotguns, i'll do it once and then remember why i hadnt done it in awhile.

 

[benEzra]

Definitely try a heavier buffer or bolt carrier, or both. The heavier buffer is inexpensive, and the bolt carrier isn't too bad either.

Do you wear earplugs under the earmuffs? I do when shooting any centerfire, and it helps. Also check for good earmuff-to-head fit.

If the stock is adjustable, play with different stock lengths and see if that helps.

As a last resort, if nothing else helps, you might consider selling the current rifle and getting either a 16" with a midlength gas system, or a 20" full length. Even better if you can try before you buy.

 

[wally]

i've shot some AR15 223s that recoiled enough that i refused to shoot them.

I'm sorry, I find that very hard to believe.

I don't like standing next to my 7" 5.56 AR SBR when someone else shoots it, but its not as bad when shooting it as you are in the acoustic "shadow" of the muzzle. Standing directly behind them is much better than being off to one side.

I think the perception of the muzzle blast has a lot to do with perceived recoil. I'd wager the "louder" gun has a bigger ejection port and maybe no case deflector (which can help deflect some sound from the ejection port). The last shot, when the bolt locks back always seem "louder" to me than the rest.

 

[BCRider]

I'm not a big AR'ish style rifle lover. But the ones I have shot had surprisingly light recoil. They were on par with my cowboy action lever rifle shooting mid power .38Spl loads. And that means that it's not a whole lot more kick then a rimfire rifle.

If yours is kicking your shoulder with enough power to produce pain of any sort then I would suggest that there's something very wrong with the rifle's setup.

In terms of noise the short barrels are killers for noise. Sticking with a 16" or even longer does a LOT towards reducing the kick on the ear drums. The guns with less than 14" barrels are HELLISHLY loud.

 

[TimSr]

I've only fired a couple of AR's but have also fired a few .223 bolt rifles, and even an over/under single shot and I have to say this whole thread on painful recoil is baffling to be. I don't understand how even a weapon that is not properly setup and assembled could make a .223 produce uncomfortable recoil for the average shooter. Maybe your hearing will never handle .223 noise even with the best ear muffs.

I think it might make you a lot happier, more comfortable, and instill some self confidence if you were to go to .22 rimfire rifle, and make shooting enjoyable for you. you might be surprised how well you can shoot when you are not anticipating a loud boom, and shoulder punch.

Another suggestion, if you are into the semi-auto thing is an .30 carbine with very little recoil, and a lot less noise than a .223.