Something went wrong during staining my stock... help!

[dak0ta]

So I sanded down my birch Marlin 925 stock, and I though I got most of the Mar-shield pigment out of it. So I put a coat on of MinWax Wood Pre-conditioner and let it dry. Then put on some MinWax Special walnut oil stain. It came out blotchy and very thick and thin in so areas! What happened?!

Right now I want to strip the stain off and start all over again, but I'm not sure what I should do differently this time. Should I sand more? Or after sanding use stripper and bleach the stock? Should I use more wood pre-conditioner? It seemed that the wood soaked the pre-conditioner up real quickly, should it be smothered onto the stock so it's still shiny?

Here's some pics of it sanded:




And then after staining with MinWax special walnut:




Blotchy forend:



Stock:





Blotchy grip:



Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Rshooter]

I am not an expert but it looks like areas that were oily or dirty may be your problem. I would recommend steel wool or very light sanding before I start over.

 

[exbiologist]

I agree. Those are the main areas where hands would have touched the gun. Probably filled the pores with oil or did something funky to the wood. It looks like you'll need to fill your pores better before trying to stain it. If your stain contains a wood filler, then maybe keep applying coats until it is even.

 

[Buzzard]

Wood finishing can be a bit of a trick, and a pre-conditioner (in my experience) is usually more of a pain than its worth. Sand that stock down until you get under the pre-conditioner and existing stain. Time you tried a very old wood worker's trick with staining....

The Shellac Trick: or How Spit Prevents Blotching

First, go get a small can of dewaxed shellac. You can find this stuff in various sized cans pre-mixed, or as raw flakes. I'd advise pre-mixed. We'll make a spit coat from it. A spit-coat is five parts denatured alcohol to one part shellac as it comes from the can (known as a half-pound cut; you might be able to buy it premade, but make sure it is dewaxed). Apply this using a natural hair brush (not foam) to the whole piece. Stir the can gently. Air bubbles are the enemy.

Let it dry. Not tacky, not until you think its ready, but bloody dry.

Now stain it.

The shellac is going to be just enough to seal the pores of the wood and take up the difference. You usually use this method when staining difficult woods (pine, for example, can be a flaming *#^%!#@ to stain). I've used this to stain cabinet-grade birch plywood without any blotches, bleaching, or color shifting. Works great. You can use most any finish over the top of it, including a nitro-based lacquer. If you're not familiar with finishes, nitrocellulose lacquer is the clear coat they use on guitars.

There's a finishing technique using shellac that will make the grain shimmer and eyes bulge in awe, but it ain't easy to pull off. And I don't think you'd want to put it on a workin' rifle.

 

[halfded]

There's a finishing technique using shellac that will make the grain shimmer and eyes bulge in awe, but it ain't easy to pull off. And I don't think you'd want to put it on a workin' rifle.

Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[MoDerN_WarRioR]

Hello! Sorry to hear about your issue you are having.

I will do everything i can to help you out with getting the look you want. I work for Sherwin-Williams Paint and sell minwax on a daily basis. We deal alot with stain issues from this product. Im not bashing Minwax because i have used it myself and i have seen both good and bad results from it.

Looking at what you have here with the before and after photos, it looks like there is a knot from all the grain direction changes around the grip area. Knots when you stain them will stain completely different from the rest of the wood where the grains run totally parallel. Wood conditioner is designed to help prevent blotches and discoloration in spots but pretty tough to get a uniform look around knots.

From what it sounds like you followed the label on the can and conditioned the wood first which is good. Especially with this kind of soft wood. A couple things that i think could be an issue is:

1: The grain is more porous around the grip portion
- Maybe due to a lack of finer sanding in that area
- Or possibly not enough wood conditioner around the dark area.

2: OIL in the pores like some people have mentioned already.
(Has this stock been used in the past and is getting refinished or is it new?)

- Did you re-stain the wood within 2 hours after applying the conditioner or did it dry completely?

- What was the final sandpaper that you used to finish the surface? It should be at least 220 or finer to give it a very smooth appearance.

And the issue with the stain penetrating more in spots than other spots leaving wet pools of stain, this is normal too. after the stain sits for about 5-10 minutes your gonna want to wipe off the excess to keep it from being blotchy also.

NOW, ways to fix it: You could do a couple things... If your fine with the wood turning darker, you can re-coat the wood in the spots that are light to try to match the color of the dark spots. Adding stain will always richen up the wood and darken it. So This could be an easy option w/o having to strip it completely again.

Or you can try to lightly sand with very fine sanding paper on the dark spots to try to remove some of the penetrated wood to lighten the color as well. ALSO keep in consideration, once you apply your final top coat of CLEAR Varnish, it will give the color depth and darken it just a tad more too.

I hope i helped some what and if you have any more questions, feel free to ask me. IF i cant help you, i have about 20 other stores in my District and i can find some one that can give me other options and answers. Ill mention this to my manager tomorrow too and see what he says! No worries! Its not ruined!!

Talk to you later!
-Chris

 

[UpTheIrons]

A related question...

I'm about to strip the stock of a Savage Model 88. The stock has spots where the finish has flaked off, and some of those spots are dirty from handling (like on the grip area and forearm).

Can I expect the same result as the OP after using something like Zip Strip to strip the wood bare? Or would you recommend something else? This is a "project gun", so it is no great loss if it doesn't look great, but the next one I'm going to do should not look like a drunk and colorblind monkey refinished it with fingerpaints.

 

[MoDerN_WarRioR]

Buzzard, good advice on how to seal the pores! i like that technique.

 

[MoDerN_WarRioR]

UPTheIrons you sure do want to get that wood as bare and to natural as possible. The more uniformed the wood the more uniformed it will look. The stain will be able to penetrate properly and with out having the dirt and grease there to discolor the final look.

Just my .02

-Chris

 

[markallen]

The dark blotchy areas you see are end grain. The wood grain runs the length of the stock. Anywhere that the stock ends, or in the case of the grip area, turned down, exposes the end grain.
Think of the wood grain as a bunch of tubes that run the length of the stock. That is how water is distributed from the roots throughout the height of the tree.
End grain is the holes of the tubes at both ends.
End grain will absorb stain more readily, and absorb more stain deeper, then the side, or with the grain. Think of a sponge, dipped in water.
You'll have to remove the stain, which will not be easy on the dark areas, as they have absorbed more stain, and absorbed it deeper.
You may not be able to remove all the stain from those areas as they gone too deep without removing too much wood. You can try stripper, on the areas to lighten them up, or use sanding sealer on those areas to seal them, them stain the surrounding areas darker to match.

 

[desidog]

How was that applied? looks too thick to me. Did you use Mineral Spirits first?

I would have just gone with Linseed or tongue oil....but did you mix up the stain first?

also, did you try a test patch inside the barrel channel? always a good idea.

 

[bamajoey]

When refinishing a stock, the last thing I use is sandpaper. I never use sandpaper to remove a finish, I always use a stripper. Put the stripper on, let it sit the recommended time, then scrape it, or wipe it off. I also use 0000 steel wool to help the stripper. Keep repeating the procedure until the finish is gone. Wash with mineral spirits, or laquer thinner, let it dry over night before doing any sanding at all. Now is the time to iron any dents in the wood if there are any present. Let the wood dry. I very seldom ever use new sandpaper, because it cuts too well. I also use 200 grit and finer, because you only want to take off the nibs. Once this is done, you are ready to apply stain or finish.

 

[harmonic]

As a former hobbyist cabinetmaker it looks as if you didn't sand the end grain well enough. The end grain is still too porus which caused it to soak up more stain than the surrounding areas.

You need to use increasingly finer grades of a sandpaper and sand the heck out of those areas.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

bump - sorry but I need to keep this thread where I can reference it later. Good stuff.

 

[jdowney]

That sure looks like alder

ok the problem is that the wood is not really suitable for a pigment stain - too soft and porous - its like trying to stain balsa wood to take an extreme example. Wood sucks it up like no tomorrow on the end grain and looks about like what you want everywhere else.

I'd strip it and dump all the crap from the hardware store. Get some flake shellac (or Bullseye if you have to have premixed - just thin it by about 1/3 to half with denatured alcohol) and add this stuff called transtint to get the color you want. I've only had good luck using this stuff in shellac, but you can also mix it with water, straight alcohol, or oil if you add a little acetone (that's worked well for me too, but there are a few pitfalls doing it that way). You can buy transtint at Woodcraft or similar woodworking store or mail order vendor. They have no idea such things exist down at Home Depot. Stuff's not at all cheap I'm afraid.

Above all, do some tests on un-obtrusive areas (not all that easy with a gunstock, I know).

Now if you really want to stick to minwax, you could try their polyshades product. It was for sale everywhere a few years ago, but I believe the popularity dropped due to a steep learning curve. I got the results I wanted out of it, so it can be done, but its not as easy as tinting up some shellac.

 

[Buzzard]

A "cut" of shellac is the ratio of flakes to denatured alcohol. Thus a half-pound cut is a half pound of flakes to a gallon of denatured alcohol. If you're a math whiz, you can figure the mass/volume ratio and scale it up or down as needed. Me? I'm lazy and mix a gallon of alcohol to a half-pound of flakes. But then, I only mix the stuff when I really need shellac. Like when I'm using three sheets of plywood for a project and need 'em stained, or have to stain pine.

No, I'm not a professional. Anything but, actually! If you really want a good source of wood-working know-how, grab Woodworker's Visual Handbook (out of print; get it used) or a subscription to either Fine Woodworking or Popular Woodworking. The Taunton Press' Complete Illustrated Guide series is great if you've got money (they run $40 a book).

Inquiring minds want to know!

Its a technique called a French Polish and it only works on a shellac finish. The end result is an ultra-glossy mirror that enhances the grain and makes the object look like you encased it in glass. Look at any antique or classical instrument; guitar, violin, cello. Most of those that have a museum-quality look to them? That's not a special oil or some voodoo trick, its a French polish on nicely figured wood. You can find plenty of examples online. It takes literally two days to make it right as you have to let the finish rest for 24 hours between certain steps. Since shellac isn't a hard finish, it doesn't hold up very well to wear. Which is why I wouldn't put it on a workin' rifle. You can use a topcoat to protect it, however you won't get the full effect. Oh, and your topcoat can't be alcohol-based or you'll partially dissolve the shellac, thus ruining the finish.

When you're done? Whoaaaa....... a glass gloss. Details in your fingerprints can be clearly seen if you did it right. How clear? Think neon at midnight. Tiny flecks of dust or a single pet hair are easily spotted, too. To touch it up, simply (ha!) perform the final polishing step again.

You can also polish an existing hard finish using very fine sandpaper. No, not 320 grit. You're not even close. Last time I did a polished finish on poly I started polishing it with 1,000 and stopped when I hit 6,000 grit. Wipe the dust off with mineral spirits, carefully. You can get superfine (2k+) sandpaper at automotive stores. Works very well on hard polyurethane (oil or water base; not spar) and hard lacquers. Note I keep saying "hard." Softer finishes, like spar varnish, wiping lacquer and especially shellac, will absolutely not polish worth anything using sandpaper. If you think "glossy" has a nice shine from the can, you ain't seen nothin' yet. The difference is akin to your polished dress shoes to an Embassy Marine's dress shoes.

And if you're the lazy type (me)....

http://woodworking.about.com/od/finishing/p/FrenchPolishing.htm
http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/GuideToFrenchPolishing.pdf <-- PDF File explaining the process.
warning: this requires work. How much? If your arm feels as if it'll fall off when you get about half-way done with the first polish, you're on the right road. When you've burned out both arms, you're nearly done.

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

Brother, you've got two issues. mark allen said:

The dark blotchy areas you see are end grain. The wood grain runs the length of the stock. Anywhere that the stock ends, or in the case of the grip area, turned down, exposes the end grain.

and jdowney said:

the problem is that the wood is not really suitable for a pigment stain - too soft and porous -

Both are right. I won't say that stock is alder; I'm not that slick

It is a light, soft wood, AND your end grains are sucking up the dark stain you're using. My best advice (I've refinished dozens of stocks) is to use a lighter colored stain. I like Minwax, and that looks about right for their "Jacobean" or "Walnut." I'd try a much lighter shade, and apply it very sparingly. A cotton rag, lightly dipped into the stain and then rubbed vigorously over one area of the stock will give you more control over how much stain you put into a given area. If the grip drinks more and goes darker, just rag more into the grain around the grip, evening out the darker spots.

Also, finish the stock with Tung Oil. I like Formby's Tung Oil Finish, available at any Lowe's. With Tung Oil, rag on a good coat and let it dry overnight. Steel wool with 0000 the next day and repeat. Lay in 12 or more coats. Tung Oil fills the grain, hardnes the surface wood, and is durable. You'll never knock Tung Oil off the wood's surface the way you can with laquers or urethanes because it's down IN the wood grain.

It's also tough as pig-iron and easy to maintain or touch up as needed. It's next to impossible to touch up urethane or laquer.

It also sets up quite hard, unlike BLO (boiled linseed oil, which requires a voodoo ceremony to apply correctly and remains soft over time).

Good luck!
KR

 

[FlyinBryan]

oddly, ive seen another birch stock do the exact same thing, in the exact same places

 

[jdowney]

I won't say that stock is alder; I'm not that slick

Yeah, looking closer its birch... just gettin' used to seeing alder masquerading as useful wood all over the place I do hope no manufacturer ever makes a run of stocks out of it

 

[nitetrane98]

The dark blotchy areas you see are end grain. The wood grain runs the length of the stock. Anywhere that the stock ends, or in the case of the grip area, turned down, exposes the end grain.
Think of the wood grain as a bunch of tubes that run the length of the stock. That is how water is distributed from the roots throughout the height of the tree.
End grain is the holes of the tubes at both ends.
End grain will absorb stain more readily, and absorb more stain deeper, then the side, or with the grain. Think of a sponge, dipped in water.
You'll have to remove the stain, which will not be easy on the dark areas, as they have absorbed more stain, and absorbed it deeper.
You may not be able to remove all the stain from those areas as they gone too deep without removing too much wood. You can try stripper, on the areas to lighten them up, or use sanding sealer on those areas to seal them, them stain the surrounding areas darker to match.

Glad I read all the posts on this topic. I swear I was about to write the exact same thing except i was going say straws.

A few comments.

You seal up that end grain using a glue size. Basically a pre conditioner but with the advantage that after the glue size dries all the little nibs will be hardened and will cut off easier instead of laying flat. You can make a good glue size with 50/50 water and PVA glue.
If you really want to show what little grain feature there is in that wood learn to use a scraper instead of sandpaper or steel wool. If you ever see the ungodly mess sandpaper makes on wood under high magnification you will understand why scraping is preferred for high end wood work. I realize you might not want to go to such extremes for a relatively plain jane piece of wood. You have to learn to burnish an edge on the scraper etc., but you can actually do a fairly good job with single edge razor blades. Scraping lets the little subtlties show through, and let's face it subtle is about all it's got going for it.

Once you learn to use aniline dyes and such you'll never want to use a pigment dye again. They invariably leave a piece looking muddy and dull in regard to the color of the wood. You can use any type of shiny topcoat you want but the wood will still look muddy underneath it. Once you learn how to use different types of colors of tint you can make the grain virtually pop out at you. I use Transtint. There are others that I'm sure are very good. I've never used anything but Transtint and I've got it down pat. You can mix the stuff with virtually anything. The color combinations are endless.

If you can spitshine a pair of combat boots, you can do french polish. And as noted, just about as durable.

Only thing I saw I don't really agree with is the notion that lacquer is not easily repaired.
Lacquer can be sanded and recoated and will give chemical as well as mechanical adhesion. Once cured, the urethanes and catalyzed finishes will not re-dissolve and will often leave a "ghost ring" around the edges of the repaired area. Lacquer is not very durable however and wouldn't be my first choice for a rifle.

The best topcoat I ever did for a guy who wanted a real shiny finish was plain old automotive acrylic urethane clear coat. Filled all the grain and then bllock sanded with 1500 grit wet dry and buffed it just like a car. Too shiny for my taste but the guy loved it. It was beautiful wood though.

Alder(and birch for my money) is indeed ugly as hell but it's cheap and sufficiently strong for the task. The best thing it has going for it is it's stability. Fender has been making Strats out of it for years.

If you will reconcile yourself to the fact that you cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear and simply concentrate on making that hunk of wood look as good as it can, you'll be much more satisfied with the results. Generally speaking the only place you can find even a small modicum of interesting grain on these type of woods is on the bottom of the forestock where there is likely to be a 1/4 sawn presentation of the wood. The rest is flatsawn and usually pretty uninspiring.

 

[fireman 9731]

I have seen the exact same thing when finishing cheap single shot shotgun stocks. And yes, as others have said, its end grain.

Personally, I don't think it looks bad. I even kinda like it, I think it gives it some character. Put about 4 coats of Tru-oil on there and you will be good to go!

 

[LiquidTension]

I've found that oil from your hands gets pretty deep into the wood around the grip areas. A simple method for getting it out is to put the stock in the dishwasher. You'll have to sand and stain all over, but you were going to do that anyway.

 

[Kyle1886]

Tagged for future reference

 

[dak0ta]

Thanks for the input guys.

I'm going to re-strip the stock, re-sand, and sand a little more in the trouble areas (finesse you shall say)

Then I will use more wood-preconditioner, focusing on certain trouble spots.

More importantly, I will use a Gel-stain, which doesn't soak up as much into the grain, and I have more time to control its dispersal and depth by wiping off.

With the combination of sanding, pre-conditioner, and gel stain, I should get a more balanced stain.

Hope it works. And btw, feel free to sticky this as a BEWARE for Birch and similar types of wood!

Post your thoughts, opinions, strategies, anything to make this fine hobby a good one! I just started, so I'm having fun learning! I'm sure there are many more out there.

 

[rondog]

Something else to keep in mind - the shape of a rifle stock exposes the wood grain from several different angles/directions, which all will soak up the stain/finish differently. In the grip area, that is end grain and very porous, like millions of tiny soda straws. It's just naturally going to suck in more stain there, and oil, and grime, etc. There will be end grain areas and side grain areas all over the stock, and they'll come out differently.

I refinished my M1 carbine stok, and the area inside, at the back of the receiver, was saturated with oil. Old military rifles that were cleaned, oiled, then put in vertical rifle racks....all that oil just drained to the lowest point, which is the back of the receiver. That's end grain wood there, which soaks up the oil like a sponge.