Soon-to-be graduate of major LE org. gives wrong answers to simple test deadly force

[brentfoto]

Here's the scenario. YOU, THE BYSTANDER, are at your local gunclub/FFL where a soon-to-be graduate of a major LE organization academy in a major County in a very large State has purchased a handgun, a rather expensive Sig-Sauer...

The LE purchaser was still required to pass a written true-false examination to obtain a Handgun Safety Certificate, a prerequisite to purchase of the firearm, and to wait ten days to pick up the gun.

The soon-to-be LE grad passed the written test.

You, however, happen to overhear that he has answered incorrectly two or three questions concerning justifiable use of deadly force. These may be the only questions posed that concerned use of deadly force. The salesman is flabbergasted, you are flabbergasted.

The LE grad says he's 'tired', but when further queried about the wrong answers by the salesman the LE still quibbles about the wording of the question(s) and obviously reads too much into them. You’re a bit ‘shocked’, so is the salesman.

A few days pass and you are concerned about the matter. It 'comes up' in your thoughts.

The particular LE organization from which this person has graduated has no shortage of shootings.

You think 'if this were a civilian I would not be as concerned, but this guy's gonna carry a gun at all times and perhaps encounter an innocent civilian and shoot him due to 'reading too much' into his conduct.

Assume the LE grad can not be forced to take the written examination again because he still passed the exam as his overall score was 'satisfactory'.

What should YOU, an ordinary member and customer of the gunclub/FFL, do, if anything, and WHY?

 

[Joe the Redneck]

Report the incident to his CO.

 

[brentfoto]

May I ask WHY?

 

[BozemanMT]

Ever hear the joke about the FBI, LAPD and ATF go on a training mission and get told to go find a bunny rabbit?

I'm just saying is all.

Besides, what difference does it make, the next LE to get charged with homicide after someone jumps into the path of their bullet will be the first. Why should he know? It doesn't matter in the end.

Just gives ya warm fuzzies doesn't it? :banghead:

 

[Devonai]

Offer to take the rookie shooting, that's about all you can do now.

 

[brentfoto]

I'll probably never see him again, though he will have to return to pick up the gun after ten days.

Everyone seems to be ignoring about contacting the salesman. The salesman, though, is in an uncomfortable position because he has sold an expensive gun to a customer, albeit a new one. He wants to keep his business.

The question concerns what I should do, if anything, though. That might include contacting the salesman to see how he feels about the matter. I know this particular salesman and he takes a very serious approach to gun safety and use of force.

You know, it's seems very easy to let this one go...but what about my moral or ethical obligation to the public down the road? Do I have any? I know there's no legal duty (on my part) to do or say anything.

Then again, this guy is a new recruit and reporting the matter to his CO could harm his career.

I was HOPING this would spark a lot of discussion, and answers would indicate what course I should take, if any, and WHY?

 

[tallpaul]

What the heck is a question on deadly force? Is it a local or state requirement to get a gun? I never heard of that one and I have bought ...ahem... one or two in my day.

 

[lawdogso]

What was the question?

 

[Javelin]

What the heck is a question on deadly force? Is it a local or state requirement to get a gun? I never heard of that one and I have bought ...ahem... one or two in my day.

Yeah sounds like a communist manifesto thing to me. Do they make you declare allegiance to some regime as well? Or is that in the next revision of the bill?

 

[brentfoto]

Assume that he answered incorrectly all questions re use of deadly force.

I only recall one. But I'll search my 'memory' to see if I recall the other two.

Paraphrasing now-'your assailant is rendered unconscious. Can you apply deadly force?'

His answer was 'Yes' (True). When asked to explain his answer he said 'Well the guy was faking it".

 

[brentfoto]

tallpaul What the heck is a question on deadly force? Is it a local or state requirement to get a gun? I never heard of that one and I have bought ...ahem... one or two in my day.
Today 04:06 PM

State requirement that one cannot buy a handgun if not in possession of a Handgun Safety Certificate. You must take a written test and pass it in order to get the Certificate.

 

[tallpaul]

man am I glad I don't live in California

So do you have to get all the questions right or is it graded on a curve? if on a curve he may have passed.... if he answered enough to pass you have no business butting in actually. If he failed and they wanted to pass him then it would be a different issue.

 

[brentfoto]

He passed the test. I already gave that information.

He is to be sworn in as a peace officer shortly.

 

[brentfoto]

tallpaul man am I glad I don't live in California

So do you have to get all the questions right or is it graded on a curve? if on a curve he may have passed.... if he answered enough to pass you have no business butting in actually. If he failed and they wanted to pass him then it would be a different issue.
Today 04:29 PM

I don't have any problem with having to take the test. I think it's okay, especially for those people who are newbies. The Certificate's good for five years.

Read this-you might learn a thing or two! . It does address use of deadly force on pp. 37-38.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf

 

[TAB]

I have both given and taken that test...its not exactly hard. In my time working for a FFL I don't recall anyone ever failing it. All but one I oversaw were perfect scores.


http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/hscfaqs.php#a5

 

[brentfoto]

As I recall, I think he got 3-5 questions wrong.

I took the test about a year ago, but first I read the pamphlet extensively. I think it possible that if one does not read the pamphlet, it is very easy to get some wrong answers. I scored 100%-sort of proud of that!

Anyway, I started shooting 18 years ago and was not thrilled about having to pay the $25.00 to take the test but it's one time every five years, so what the heck... with so many thousands of gun-related deaths or injuries each year, I see no problem with imposing this educational requirement for the purchase of a weapon.

 

[psyopspec]

You think 'if this were a civilian I would not be as concerned, but this guy's gonna carry a gun at all times and perhaps encounter an innocent civilian and shoot him due to 'reading too much' into his conduct.

What branch of the armed forces is he in?

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

Mind your own business. He passed the test. How would you like it if people reported everything you did wrong to your boss? Even when you aren't on the clock?

It's not your job to babysit him. If you want to correct the actions of a "almost" rookie LEO, go through the training, put in your time, and become a FTO or better yet work at the academy.

 

[brentfoto]

I just think the guy was not all very bright and I would not want to possibly jeopardize his career when he's just starting out...

Ended up contacting the salesman. I asked the salesman if he had since given any thought about the incident and he replied in the negative. This is the same salesman that extensively demonstrated and tested me as part of the 'handgun demonstration' safety 'test' before you can pick up a new gun (yes, ANOTHER requirement in our beloved State of California).

Anyway, I voiced my concern about it to the salesman and suggested that he have a little chat with the guy when he comes to pick up his gun. It may or may not be the best 'solution' but it worked for me.

Thanks to all for their input.

 

[johnle]

I do not remember any questions on the HSC about deadly force.

It was mostly about safety and that was about it.

 

[brentfoto]

I think the questions get shuffled about. Lookit-I was there, man! I'm telling you what happened. And it makes sense, does it not, to ask the new handgun owner general questions/principles re use of deadly force. Long live California!

 

[brentfoto]

Scorpiusdeus Mind your own business. He passed the test. How would you like it if people reported everything you did wrong to your boss? Even when you aren't on the clock?

It's not your job to babysit him. If you want to correct the actions of a "almost" rookie LEO, go through the training, put in your time, and become a FTO or better yet work at the academy.
Today 05:35 PM

Now you're being ridiculous. We're talking about a public servant here, who is always subject to scrutiny.

 

[johnle]

my gun shop uses the same copy of the HSC as every other shop, questions are exactly the same.

There's only one paragraph in the HSC guide book about deadly force, just ONE paragraph.

 

[brentfoto]

Wrong again. There are three paragraphs on pp. 37-38 that would apply to deadly force/self defense situations.

 

[johnle]

I was on the PDF file of the HSC, searching for "deadly force".

That wording only appears in one paragraph, but yeah there's three paragraphs about self defense.

"Limitations on the Use of Force in Self-Defense
The right of self-defense ceases when there is no further danger from an assailant.
Thus, where a person attacked under circumstances initially justifying self-defense
renders the attacker incapable of inflicting further injuries, the law of self-defense
ceases and no further force may be used. Furthermore, a person may only use the
amount of force, up to deadly force, as a reasonable person in the same or similar
circumstances would believe necessary to prevent imminent injury. It is important
to note the use of excessive force to counter an assault may result in civil or
criminal penalties.

The right of self-defense is not initially available to a person who assaults another.
However, if such a person attempts to stop further combat and clearly informs the
adversary of his or her desire for peace but the opponent nevertheless continues
the fight, the right of self-defense returns and is the same as the right of any
other person being assaulted."

I'd basically just butt out, if he shoots someone he isn't supposed to he'll have to deal with internal affairs investigations. Plus police code may carry very different definitions for use of deadly force than the HSC manual.

HSC = for normal people.
LEO's have their own exams, test, definitions and qualifications they have to adhere to. The HSC is just a formality for them