bihj
Member
200 yds... not worth the trouble. At that range you won't see enough improvement to make any difference.
Sorting 223 Lake City brass
- Thread starter kmw1954
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kmw1954
Member
Thanks to all. Seems the consensus here is about the same as elsewhere and that whether 50 feet or 200yds there will not be much change in performance so I will from here out just use the date stamp as a away to keep lots and track the number of firings.
Average Joe
Member
When I sort my brass it goes like this: Lake City=keep, Not Lake City =toss. Simple.
Charlie98
Member
Actually, just like any manufactured item... it does matter. Because LC, specifically, manufacturers brass (and ammunition) for a contract with specifics, some of their production meets specs, some doesn't. I bought 500 7.62mm LC 18 brass pulls... this was from loaded ammunition that very likely didn't meet some specification, was disassembled, and the components sold. I don't know what the issue was, it could have been anything from not meeting velocity requirements to corrosion issues. I have question about some of the loaded ammunition on the market... it could be contract overruns, or it could be a specific lot of ammunition that didn't meet specs for some reason, but does meet LC (Federal/ATK's, now Winchester's...) specifications for commercial ammunition... and sold.
As MetalGod mentions... there are variances in brass lots. I have see this myself, mostly in 7.62mm, because that's what I load the most of. I have a BUNCH of LC 5.56mm brass, all fired by me, not range pickup, of different years, that I will be working with soon... so I'll find out soon enough.
Back to the OP's question... will it make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. But as far as controlling the variances on your handloads, yes, I would segregate by headstamp and year... I do so myself. Does it make any difference in a 16" AR with 5K+ rounds down the barrel? Probably not. Would it make a difference in a good bolt gun with a serviceable barrel? Maybe. As someone else mentioned, bullet and powder selection would probably make more of a difference... but accurate handloads is all about splitting hairs. If the OP chooses to go beyond 200yds, any differences in his handloads, including case volume, will make a difference.
Charlie98
Member
Yes.
First you said "Maybe, Maybe not"?
Show us the difference
Better get a $600 electronic scale to measure 1/2 of a stick of powder as well
Charlie98
Member
Well... now you are being absurd... so just stop it.
I did say maybe/maybe not... and that is still my answer to whether or not case variances might affect a handload's performance.
The answer to your claim of...
... my answer is 'Yes'... that there WILL positively be variances between cases, not necessarily individually, but as case lots, and certainly off different machines within lots. Some might be measurable, some might not. Would any particular shooter see a definitive difference? See my answer above...
Maybe or maybe not. Is not an answer Well then what is the purpose?
Most other brass does not have a year date then what do you do?
If the year date is a concern, perhaps one should find the Month it is was produced. Certainly with all these variances, then is brass made in January so much different than that made in December.?? Who Knows what machine it came off of?
Then narrow it down by week and day.
Based on this chart (it's old) then Lapua or Hornady would be the best choice.
https://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html
As I posted earlier it is all much to do about nothing! Perhaps the top rated BR people have such concerns but for 99.9% of the other shooters, no.
Most other brass does not have a year date then what do you do?
If the year date is a concern, perhaps one should find the Month it is was produced. Certainly with all these variances, then is brass made in January so much different than that made in December.?? Who Knows what machine it came off of?
Then narrow it down by week and day.
Based on this chart (it's old) then Lapua or Hornady would be the best choice.
https://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html
As I posted earlier it is all much to do about nothing! Perhaps the top rated BR people have such concerns but for 99.9% of the other shooters, no.
Engineer1911
member
Purpose: ACCURACY
This is my short story of anal attentiveness on the subject of "Matching Brass" . I have a shorty 16" original Bushmaster from Wyndham, ME (1991) with handle style iron sights and collapsible butt stock -- not exactly a Match Grade rifle. The ammo was collected range dropped mil spec ammo with different head stamps, different bullet weights, no 2 cartridges the same. Each cartridge was checked in a case gage to verify that the round would chamber.
I had zeroed my rifle at 100 yards using a 25 yard pistol bullseye target with a 6 o'clock hold. I put up a new target, loaded a magazine with 17 different headstamps / bullets, and shot for group size / accuracy with iron sights. The front handguard was on a Lyman rest, with the butt stock held against my shoulder. The target had 15 bullet holes inside the 10-ring / X-ring. Two shots were in the 9 ring just out of the 10 ring. I am 72 years old, had cataract surgery shooting original military iron sights with a rifle having a collapsible butt stock.
Don't waste my time about match prepped brass and sorting headstamps. The rifle shoots or it don't! Any thing else is just an excuse to explain your inability to aim the rifle. Have a nice day reading headstamps.
This is my short story of anal attentiveness on the subject of "Matching Brass" . I have a shorty 16" original Bushmaster from Wyndham, ME (1991) with handle style iron sights and collapsible butt stock -- not exactly a Match Grade rifle. The ammo was collected range dropped mil spec ammo with different head stamps, different bullet weights, no 2 cartridges the same. Each cartridge was checked in a case gage to verify that the round would chamber.
I had zeroed my rifle at 100 yards using a 25 yard pistol bullseye target with a 6 o'clock hold. I put up a new target, loaded a magazine with 17 different headstamps / bullets, and shot for group size / accuracy with iron sights. The front handguard was on a Lyman rest, with the butt stock held against my shoulder. The target had 15 bullet holes inside the 10-ring / X-ring. Two shots were in the 9 ring just out of the 10 ring. I am 72 years old, had cataract surgery shooting original military iron sights with a rifle having a collapsible butt stock.
Don't waste my time about match prepped brass and sorting headstamps. The rifle shoots or it don't! Any thing else is just an excuse to explain your inability to aim the rifle. Have a nice day reading headstamps.
entropy
Member
I sort them by date, probably more out of OCD than any thing else. I like the LC 09 and 13 for my hunting loads.
Charlie98
Member
Again... you are really being silly about this...
What I also said...
It really boils down to what the OP expects of his handloads, and how far he is willing to go for them. As I also implied, I don't think LC brass is all that great... it IS mass produced.
...because of the 'Maybe.' Again, it depends on what you are expecting out of your handloads. For a new reloader who is trying to work as much accuracy out of their handloads as possible, it only makes sense to minimize the variables.
Metal God
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This is all that need be said . If the argue-er even concludes it makes a difference , then the debate is over even if they want to keep arguing it doesn't . If it can make a difference with top shooters then it makes a difference period . That fact an average shoot can't tell doesn't mean sorting brass doesn't make a difference . Just means it doesn't for you because you can't shoot well .
This reminds me of a Smithbusters video I just watched . The title is ( Is match ammo better then standard ammo ) . They concluded no match ammo is not better because most shooters don't shoot well enough to notice , don't have a good enough rig , use the wrong sights/optics or shoot at distances that are to close to notice the difference etc . I literally watched with my mouth open shaking my head thinking what the hell are they talking about . EVERY reason they gave as to why match ammo was no better then standard ammo had to do with the shooter , gun or accessories they used on the gun . There argument had literally nothing to do with the ammo it self . I've come to expect bad videos from random guys on the net like that but when it comes from the "professionals" at Brownells ??? WOW
Winchester 308 brass in the 70's and early 80's weighed in the low 150's now it averages in the mid 170's this results in a case volume difference of 5+gr . Again how does year/s not make a difference .
I've got another one for you Mr expert . That LC-14 brass I have in 308 I say is the worse brass lot I have . That lot is 1500+ct and 10% of the primer pockets are stretched out on there first firing ( not my first firing but when I get them as once fired ) 10% of the primer pockets are already blown out . Also I can't load them to the same pressures as I can with my LC-09 , 10 ,12 , 15 or 17 cases with out getting sticky bolts and they have an internal case volume greater then all the rest . I've done multiple test on these cases to figure out what was going on and concluded they are simply softer then other years resulting in the inability to handle the same pressures .
I know you "think" your right based on logic . I'm here to tell you you are wrong based on evidence .
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entropy
Member
7.62 and 5.56 LC brass are two entirely different subjects.
Gonna have to check that video out. Hopefully they at least meant that in a qualitative sense it is no better because better has to be in some context. And the average or below average shooter or shooter & rifle combo will not be able to demonstrate anything better among different types of ammo. There's of course quantitative data about consistency, but that only means better when better is well defined and conditions exist for it to be seen and measured.
Better could be heavier, lighter, faster, cheaper, more abundant, shinier, more exclusive, etc. Better accuracy can only come with a system able to demonstrate accuracy. So if it were something of a financial discussion, as in should the average shooter spend the money on match ammo, I could maybe see their point then. But that's still no reason to not acknowledge the differences that exist in the manufacture of match ammo vs others.
Better could be heavier, lighter, faster, cheaper, more abundant, shinier, more exclusive, etc. Better accuracy can only come with a system able to demonstrate accuracy. So if it were something of a financial discussion, as in should the average shooter spend the money on match ammo, I could maybe see their point then. But that's still no reason to not acknowledge the differences that exist in the manufacture of match ammo vs others.
FROGO207
Member
I find that for 223/5.56 I can't see a diffetence shooting at 100 YDS. To me the weight difference was not enough to cause me to seperate by headstamp. Now with 308/ 7.62X51 there is a significant difference in case volume/weight. More so than any other case volumes I have checked. Just be aware of this fact when using military brass.
If you have a good accurate gun, and are using quality bullets, and expect very good to excellent results, by all means separate LC brass by years and then check it by your preferred method, weight or water capacity.
Or just buy a large batch of high quality brass, but LC is good brass, we just need to do some sorting.
Or just buy a large batch of high quality brass, but LC is good brass, we just need to do some sorting.
Absolutely.
OP
OP
kmw1954
Member
What is amazing is I asked a relatively simple question pertaining to Lake City 223 or should I say 5.56 brass because Lake City is not marked by either 223 or 5.56 designation. That simple question basically is it worth the time/effort to sort that 223/5.56 by the number stamp that is used. I have been told that number marks the year of production. As with other posted threads I have read there are conflicting sides. One main issue is that with a short barrel Semi-Auto fired from 25 feet to 100 yards the inherent accuracy is such that no it is not worth the time and effort for Blasting Ammo. Yet in all I have read very little is said about the use of Lake City 223/5.56 in a bolt action rifle that will be regularly fired out to 200yds and on occasion 300yds...
The interjection of "well bullets, primers, powder, gun, shooter skill all make a difference" then with that just what happens when all those things are tolerance stacked? All loosely stacked and you have absolute junk, all very tightly stacked results are the opposite. But again this question wasn't posed as what makes the most accurate ammunition. I am fully aware that the correct bullet, bullet weight, powder make and powder charge, primer, gun, scope are all components of an accurate load. The question was simply about one component.
Well I do not have the eyesight, magnification and light to sit and read all the different dots on the cases to sort the SCAMP to narrow it down to which plant and machine it came from. I also do not have the patience to do that though it could be done.
So what I have gleaned from this discussion and the other articles elsewhere that out to 200yds that there is not enough of a difference in case quality that it would make any significant difference. Farther out than 200yds I guess is still debatable. So I will continue to sort my Lake City brass by stamped number and use that as just a lot control and then spend my time developing loads per bullet and powder.
Though I did find it funny and curious that today I had two competition shooters doing load development on the range today and they were debating primer use.
The interjection of "well bullets, primers, powder, gun, shooter skill all make a difference" then with that just what happens when all those things are tolerance stacked? All loosely stacked and you have absolute junk, all very tightly stacked results are the opposite. But again this question wasn't posed as what makes the most accurate ammunition. I am fully aware that the correct bullet, bullet weight, powder make and powder charge, primer, gun, scope are all components of an accurate load. The question was simply about one component.
Well I do not have the eyesight, magnification and light to sit and read all the different dots on the cases to sort the SCAMP to narrow it down to which plant and machine it came from. I also do not have the patience to do that though it could be done.
So what I have gleaned from this discussion and the other articles elsewhere that out to 200yds that there is not enough of a difference in case quality that it would make any significant difference. Farther out than 200yds I guess is still debatable. So I will continue to sort my Lake City brass by stamped number and use that as just a lot control and then spend my time developing loads per bullet and powder.
Though I did find it funny and curious that today I had two competition shooters doing load development on the range today and they were debating primer use.
Spare Parts
Member
The OP may need to explain how the powder in the case knows what year the case was manufactured.
Is the year a proxy for case volume? As far as I know, powder volume is the only thing the powder load knows.
I suggest OP measure case volume by year to validate their implied assumption.
OP
OP
kmw1954
Member
Never mind.
Blue68f100
Member
It has in the past. There was a article on accurate shooter listing weights/volumes of different mfg including LC years on a few. There was a change years back that increased the case volume to make it more inline with commercial. Before that you had to reduce the loads by 2gr or better to keep from blowing a primer. Every time they do maintenance on their brass forming machines, there is a chance there is going to be a small change. Dies wear with time and constant use.
Metal God
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OP , I think this has been very informative. You have exactly what would be expected from guys with a lot of experience reloading . Its been well written and explained by all . The first few post explained all you need to know , the rest are just expanding on the question and answers .
Inside of 300yds with out a custom rig in a rest you’ll not see a difference.
It’s now time for you to decide how you will proceed ,
Inside of 300yds with out a custom rig in a rest you’ll not see a difference.
It’s now time for you to decide how you will proceed ,
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