Spanish Judge Issues Arrest Warrants for 3 US Soldiers

[DeseoUnTaco]

As others have pointed out, the US extends its jurisdiction all over the world whenever it wants to. The US arrests non-citizens in foreign countries for violations of US law, including for victimless crimes like drug "crimes" or people who have defended their financial privacy.

So... I'm glad Spain had the cojones to do this. I hope other countries do it, too. And these US soldiers will never be able to travel outside the US again and they will never be able to own firearms in the US again. Good. We started this whole thing by exporting our laws so we shouldn't feel bad now when Spain and France and Zimbabwe start issuing warrants for our citizens.

On another related topic, I'm pretty sure that Bush, Chenney and Rumsfeld are going to think twice before traveling to parts of Europe after they retire.

 

[Futuristic]

No, No, No!

I think this means these soldiers have lost their right to own firearms in the US. Anyone who has a felony conviction from any court in the world loses his US firearms rights. But there was a case on that recently... maybe it has changed?

This is such a huge decision I can't believe everyone has forgotten it already. And, I wish people would learn the difference between an Indictment and a Conviction.

I quote CNN:
High court: Foreign convictions don't prevent gun ownership in U.S.

By Bill Mears
CNN Washington Bureau
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 Posted: 1925 GMT (0325 HKT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A Pennsylvania man can keep his gun after the Supreme Court concluded Tuesday that his conviction for crimes overseas did not prevent him from later owning a firearm.

At issue was whether a federal law prohibiting gun possession for anyone previously "convicted in any court" applied to convictions in foreign courts.

The justices ruled 5-3 that it did not, since "foreign convictions differ from domestic convictions in important ways," Justice Stephen Breyer wrote for the majority.

Futuristic

 

[GoRon]

I think we should pull our troops out of europe.

Let them take care of their own security.

If we are so despised then we should leave.

Think their socialist economies suck now, let them foot the bill for their own defense.

If our guys murdered some innocent or raped someone then hand them over.

But killing someone in a war zone?

There are plenty of countries that would love to have a greater US presence. We can still maintain a presence without putting up with euro weenie politics.

Other than the UK, Poland, and a handful of smaller nations I say we wash our hands of them.

 

[mbs357]

A guy hundred(s) of yards away shouldering a big black object while my tank's sensors are going off on laser readings?
Who wouldn't fire?

Journalists go into the field knowing and accepting the risks.

 

[Cosmoline]

THIS IS WHY WE MUST NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER TRUST THE EUROPEANS AND JOIN THE ICC.

As it stands, this is a Spanish court with zero jurisdiction over the US issuing paper of no value here. Spain has no army able to enforce the writ, and no political will for a real fight.

But if we join the ICC, these same judges will be free to launch a wholesale assault on America. They hate us and our military worse than AQ does, make no mistake. As DeseoUnTaco's comments show, they feel the US "has it coming" and want to put conservative American politicians they don't like behind bars.

Any and all sworn officers in the US are DUTY BOUND to prevent this from happening. Signing off on the ICC is an act of unspeakable TREASON giving up a central element of our sovereignty to our enemies abroad. And make no mistake--THEY ARE OUR ENEMIES. They want to see America beaten, broken and meek.

 

[denfoote]

arena de la libra

"pound sand"!!!!

 

[Kim]

I think President Bush should bring the three honorable soldiers to the White House and give them each the Medal of Honor. Where is Teddy Roosevelt when you need him! Spaiin elected a socialist govenment after they had their little terrorist attack. Let them take care of themselves and leave us alone. I have no use for them or most of Europe. If they ever need our help again I will become a complete isolationalist. And I will not vollenteer to send them any of my rifles for their self defense as we civilians did during WW2. They have spit on us and the NRA ever since.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Does anyone remember our sending troops into a sovereign nation in order to extract someone charged with violating U.S. law? I'll give you a hint--this wasn't a lowly soldier, but a general who headed up his contry's government. Manuel Noriega still sits in a U.S. prison for violating U.S. law while in his own country.

There is certainly a difference between the actions of soldiers in combat and the orchestration of criminal acts in one country by an individual in another country. That said, I am aware that the distinction may not be clear to some.

In the spirit of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander," I think it is only fair that the international community turn a blind eye should Spain decide to invade Georgia in an effort to arrest the three soldiers.

 

[Cosmoline]

Let's see Spain invade us and take these men prisoner. That would be highly entertaining

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Let's see Spain invade us and take these men prisoner. That would be highly entertaining

My thoughts exactly...

The Georgians are still ticked off at Sherman and at least he was an American.

 

[Phyphor]

Let's see Spain invade us and take these men prisoner. That would be highly entertaining

Shooting fish in a barrel is entertaining? Hell, we could at least tie one hand behind our backs before utterly destroying them.

 

[exoduster18]

Cosmoline...

Love the comment on them trying to invade us....lol

However, the many posts on the journalists knowing the dangers and choosing to go to a warzone anyhow are entirely all to true. You would think they would learn. I have to laugh because they were seen pointing a black object resting on his shoulder at the tank. Can anyone say duh? We were over there to kick terrorist @$$ and low and behold some idiot dies because of his stupity. WOW!! I just imagine what would ever compel a tank crew to fire on someone holding something that they perceive as a threat. (This is all tongue in cheek, BTW) That is just dumb. And now a Spanish judge has deemed that the soldiers involved are criminals? You would think of all countries that Spain would understand the implications of such an act. What with the Madrid bombings and all. This is rather ridiculous.

And I understand the comment on the point that we have gone into other countries to seize people in them secretly. Ok, now my point: Those that were captured and brought back to the U.S. have committed crimes here in the U.S. or upon U.S. territory around the world. How about Osama Bin Laden's underlings and the attacks on our embassies in Africa in 1998? Does that not make them criminals here in the U.S.? Or does that mean that they can't be had in other countries to get served with their just punishment?

I honestly feel that the U.S. is the only country with balls big enough to do such a thing. What's wrong with that? (I can't speak for other countries as I do not know how they run black bag ops or of their capabilities in this area I just do not understand how Spain plans on enforcing this.

I'm sorry I had to rant, but this is how I feel. Thanks for putting up with my crap. :banghead:

 

[Jordan]

Someone please help me here. I have searched the THR archives in vain.. but I could SWEAR there was a case of Bush allowing US Soldier(s) to be prosecuted by a foriegn or international court for some kind of "war crime".

One reason I'm so sure I remember that is because I remember thinking how ironic considering half the world would love to see Bush prosecuted for various "war crimes".

Someone with a better memory than mine, or better search skills, please help.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Jordan,

I do not think so. Perhaps you are thinking of GEN Franks indictment in a Belgian court for war crimes.

By the way, the Belgians would also qualify for an opportunity to invade. Perhaps they and Spain could carpool or something.

 

[Dannyboy]

Anyone read the book Thunder Run? This incident was explained in detail.
The tank crew was looking for a forward observer who was calling in mortar rounds. It was a total accident that this guy got blasted.

 

[Stand_Watie]

I don't see how Spanish justice should have any jurisdiction over an incident in Iraq during wartime. I wouldn't assume the US had jurisdiction like that either.


I don't think our courts would or should have jurisdiction over those soldiers. I certainly wouldn't want one of our judges doing this. That is a diplomatic issue. There are many diplomatic pressures and such that we put forth. If it is that serious, we can always take military action. However, I don't think our laws apply to Spain any more than I think their laws apply to me. The whole international court idea is crap.

+1

 

[Sam]

Good time to be a RETIRED GI with no foreign travel desires.

Silly@ssed Spainiard judge thinks he can pull stunts. Must be up for reelection in a Socialist district.

Everyone with a brain already left Eruope and they didn't emigrate to England either.

Sam

 

[Rabbi]

Spain invaded Mexico and slaughtered thousands of its citizens in 1519.

Let's get all the illegal Mexican immigrants, uniform and arm them and transport them to Spain. There is still a lot of hatred in Mexico against the Spaniards (as in not ONE statue of Hernan Cortez in the entire country) and they'd like to get some licks in.

We kill two birds with one stone.

Seems easy to me.

 

[GunnySkox]

Thought: Back when it happened (and they had some american journalist in some article crying about seeing or hearing the guys in the hotel getting hit), the explanation was that our boys on the ground saw reflections and stuff from the hotel and thought it was flashes from sniper fire, so they dropped a train on 'em.

~GnSx

 

[Cosmoline]

Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if there were insurgents using the building. The foreign press, not to mention some of our own, LOVE to get shots of our guys being killed.

In the case of Pineapple Face, he was tried in an Article III court for helping the Medellin Cartel transit drugs into the US. If our servicemen had been using some contact in Afghanistan to help smuggle opium into Spain, Spain would of course have grounds to request they be brought to court to answer the charges. But in this case there was no Spanish soil involved in any way, shape or form. What Spain does have is an extraordinary legal provision which purports to allow trial of foreign nationals who IN ANY WAY HARM a Spanish citizen ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. The first efforts were directed at Pinochet for allegedly torturing and killing Spanish citizens in Chile. Now it's expanding to anyone Spain does not like. The ICC would take these outrages and expand them a hundred fold, with charges handed down across the board, from the lowest ranking grunt to the President.

In spite of the nonsense spewed by America-haters, there is no similar provision in US state or federal law. Our courts have never attempted to charge foreign nationals for murder of US citizens overseas. Such an attempt would cut against basic principles of judicial comity and jurisdcition. We leave prosecution of such matters to the sovereign states in question.

 

[Mongo the Mutterer]

Cosmoline:

What Spain does have is an extraordinary legal provision which purports to allow trial of foreign nationals who IN ANY WAY HARM a Spanish citizen ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

Good research.

Lets see them enforce the legal provision. We can set up a "legal provision" which requires all Spaniards to be tried and anally probed by aliens. Doesn't mean we could enforce it. (well maybe we ought to call Roswell...)

Laws which are not or cannot be enforced should be eliminated from the books of all nations. It clutters up reality, and gives jobs to judges and lawyers who should have better things to do...

 

[Hkmp5sd]

So... I'm glad Spain had the cojones to do this.

Eh? Cojones? Bravery? A bunch of lame whinners with no ability to do anything to anyone and as such are completely ignored.

 

[coylh]

There are some important points surrounding this issue. Apparently it's more fun to hurl insults and fantasize about war.

 

[Cosmoline]

Let's put the boot on the other foot - three Spanish soldiers are wanted by the US in connection with deaths of US reporters in country X. The Spanish retort by saying that they have held an investigation and there are to be no charges. Good enough?

Whether it is or not, the protest to SPAIN WOULD BE ADDRESSED BY OUR STATE DEPARTMENT. It's a matter of foreign policy and it would be taken up on a government-to-government basis. There is no set of circumstances which would cause an Art. III court here to try to issue warrants against the Spanish soldiers in that case. It's simply impossible to image, and if it did happen it would be slapped down very fast and probably would bring official sanctions against the judge.

In Spain, the people are apparently a lot more comfortable with judges who don't just make their own laws, they have THEIR OWN FOREIGN POLICY

 

[Mongo the Mutterer]

There are some important points surrounding this issue. Apparently it's more fun to hurl insults and fantasize about war.

Yep important points.

Point number one = National Sovereignty.

In historical terms if you step on point number one you get war.