Speer .30 Super Carry 115gr Gold Dot in 250A Gel.

[5pins]

Test Gun: Smith & Wesson Shield Plus.
Barrel length: 3.1 inches.
Ammunition: Speer .30 Super Carry 115gr Gold Dot (24261GD0)
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1055fps
BB Calibration two shots: 3.73 inches at 584 fps and 3.63 inches at 569 fps.

https://general-cartridge.com/2022/12/09/speer-30-super-carry-115gr-gold-dot-in-250a-gel/

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Hmmm -- that's less velocity (by 100 - 150 fps) than a typical 9mm load with the same weight bullet.

 

[Sox]

Hmmm— that’s because it is NOT a 9mm. But, the penetration is good, bullet performance looks good, it is a pleasure to shoot. You really have to shoot it to understand. Many will go “same as 9mm” no not really. It is loud crack, quick straight back push. Shooting it, I now want one.

 

[TTv2]

Hmmm -- that's less velocity (by 100 - 150 fps) than a typical 9mm load with the same weight bullet.

Federal has told us that velocity and thus energy foot pounds means nothing. IDK how true that is, but penetration and expansion checked allt he boxes.

 

[Buckeye63]

Hmmm -- that's less velocity (by 100 - 150 fps) than a typical 9mm load with the same weight bullet.

9mm / .356
30 SC / .313
Both weighing in @ 115grs
The .313 bullet will be longer thus more sectional density…
So ..30 SC is faster by weight per diameter

Im about 90% sure we will see the S&W Equalizer
in 30 SC and I think we will see a Ruger 30 SC Security

 

[Balrog]

Doesn’t seem enough different from 9mm to have to deal with the logistics of keeping a new cartridge on hand.

 

[Buckeye63]

Doesn’t seem enough different from 9mm to have to deal with the logistics of keeping a new cartridge on hand.

Less diameter.. higher capacity .. potentially more compact pistol
Less recoil … quicker follow up shots
Similar velocity

Pretty much like the comparison between the 9mm and 40 S&W. …. ..
9mm beat the 40 S&W .. because of less recoil
quicker followup shots .. higher capacity.. potential for more compact pistols
Similar velocities

Some will not switch … like me .. I like my 40S&W but I own quite a few 9 mills too

 

[Balrog]

Less diameter.. higher capacity .. potentially more compact pistol
Less recoil … quicker follow up shots
Similar velocity

Pretty much like the comparison between the 9mm and 40 S&W. …. ..
9mm beat the 40 S&W .. because of less recoil
quicker followup shots .. higher capacity.. potential for more compact pistols
Similar velocities

Some will not switch … like me .. I like my 40S&W but I own quite a few 9 mills too

Agree with your assesment of potential benefits. To me they do not outweigh having to keep another cartridge on hand.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

Still waiting on a gun actually properly sized for the little guy. Instead, they’re shoehorned in 9mm sized platforms.

 

[westernrover]

Federal has told us that velocity and thus energy foot pounds means nothing. IDK how true that is, but penetration and expansion checked allt he boxes.

Federal doesn't actually know, but they've been told this by the FBI. What Federal does know is that the FBI's criteria makes sales to the FBI and sales to the FBI makes sales to the overwhelming majority of law enforcement agencies in the US, and sales to law enforcement in the US makes sales to the public.

So the question has to be, "what does the FBI know?"

Ammo makers like Vista Outdoors are gaming the system. The calibrated 10% ordnance gel test specified by Fackler and adopted by the FBI established the "rules" of the game. It's not surprising that ammo developed around these game rules such that 9mm and now 32 cal is getting a pass. What FBI and Vista don't know is whether their rules of the game really identify the best handgun ammo. It's very convenient to have some objective criteria that can easily be verified.

 

[JERRY]

I'm waiting to see if the 45GAP I mean the 30SC survives the test of time.
I'm leery of new calibers that offer only marginal differences for what's already out there and plentiful.

 

[anothernewb]

having shot a S&W chambered in 30 super. perhaps it was the EZ platofrm (which i am not a fan of shooting.) but there was no discernable difference (to me) from shooting a 9mm.

that being said - in those countries and areas where the general population is forbidden to use the same chamberings that their respective militaries use.I could see it taking off.

 

[Kleanbore]

Federal has told us that velocity and thus energy foot pounds means nothing.

Where did you see that? In what context was the comment made?

 

[westernrover]

At 8:37, Chris Laack begins to explain. It's not fair to characterize his comments as literally claiming that, "velocity and energy foot pounds mean nothing," but he does make it explicitly clear that Federal/Vista have completely encapsulated terminal performance within "penetration and expansion" and nothing else. At 9:00 he begins to explain Federal/Vista's view that velocity and energy merely serve to achieve the end goal of "penetration and expansion." Earlier in the video, Johann Boden explains why Federal/Vista has adopted the FBI's model for handgun terminal ballistics based on the premise that additional velocity or energy, "seems to be obliterated or washed away by the elastic capacity of our tissue."

 

[Kleanbore]

but he does make it explicitly clear that Federal/Vista have completely encapsulated terminal performance within "penetration and expansion" and nothing else.

What else should they reasonably address?

At 9:00 he begins to explain Federal/Vista's view that velocity and energy merely serve to achieve the end goal of "penetration and expansion."

Bingo!

That "view" is by no means theirs alone.

 

[westernrover]

But penetration and expansion are not actually wounding or threat-stopping.

 

[westernrover]

This is potentially a grave oversite, because "what if" more effective threat-stopping could be achieved without penetration or expansion?

I'm not going to propose any hypothetical mechanism. It suffices that the Xtreme Defense bullet proposes to be as effective or more effective without expansion. Whether it works or not is very relevant to selecting or de-selecting the particular bullet but totally irrelevant to establishing a meaningful standard. If the standard entirely disregards any alternative method to achieving what the real goal is, then it stifles innovation and can be expected to deliver to the market products that game the standard rather than deliver real-world performance. We're doomed to getting penetration and expansion without any regard for what actually works because we are convinced that we already know what actually works and the only way to achieve it. It's totally dogmatic.

 

[BreechFace]

A bullet that provides more mass on target while maintaining the same penetration as a bullet of lessor mass is going to put more energy into the target if they are traveling the same speed. The energy has to go somewhere. How a bullet manufacturer achieves adequate penetration is either by adjusting velocity, diameter of bullet, or expansion of bullet.

So if we have a Lehigh bullet that doesn't expand, has the same weight as comparable bullets, traveling at relatively the same velocities, penetrates the same, the energy that isn't reduced through friction of an expanding bullet has to go into the target somehow, which has to mean the flutes on the Lehigh bullets are in fact imparting energy into the target.

The Law of Conservation of Energy demands it.

I mentioned this exact thing above in the "Lehigh Xtreme Bullets" on post 37.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lehigh-xtreme-bullets.913354/page-2#post-12489798

I didn't watch the video but...

If increased velocity doesn't show up in an increase in penetration, that has to prove the point that the flutes are in fact imparting increased energy into the target as velocity increased if the test media is giving consistent performance on each varying shot.

But those are two big ifs....

If the bullet is non-expanding, the extra energy from increased velocity has to go somewhere.

Law of Conservation of Energy

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But penetration and expansion are not actually wounding or threat-stopping.

Well, actually they are. It's the HOLE that kills. If the hole is in the right place and is deep enough and wide enough the results will be gratifying.

A half inch hole all the way through the gazoozelum will stop most fights.

 

[Kleanbore]

But penetration and expansion are not actually wounding or threat-stopping.

You missed me. If a bullet penetrates a body, it causes a wound--right?

 

[BreechFace]

Well, actually they are. It's the HOLE that kills. If the hole is in the right place and is deep enough and wide enough the results will be gratifying.

A half inch hole all the way through the gazoozelum will stop most fights.

While I agree a 1/2" hold in the gazoozelum will stop most fights. I've seen enough damage from Vmax bullet into a chest cavity of an animal to know that a round that penetrates enough and shrapnels inside something is pretty ugly.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You missed me. If a bullet penetrates a body, it causes a wound--right?

Right. And if it expands it causes a bigger wound.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

While I agree a 1/2" hold in the gazoozelum will stop most fights. I've seen enough damage from Vmax bullet into a chest cavity of an animal to know that a round that penetrates enough and shrapnels inside something is pretty ugly.

The 35 grain Vmax loaded ahead of a compressed case full of Hornady L'il Gun is my favorite load in the .22 Hornet. But I wouldn't use it on deer, elk, or bear.

 

[BreechFace]

The 35 grain Vmax loaded ahead of a compressed case full of Hornady L'il Gun is my favorite load in the .22 Hornet. But I wouldn't use it on deer, elk, or bear.

Oh I agree, which is why I said "penetrates enough" which is largely subjective based on what the target on the receiving end is. I was just simply stating that a rapid expansion/fragmentation of the bullet once penetrated through the outer shell into the soft juicy parts is a fight stopper as well. Just an aside to the 1/2" hole in the gazoozelum.

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

Federal's reasoning is that velocity and energy only matter once a bullet reaches 2,200 fps and creates reliable hydrostatic damage. Since that does not take place with handguns raw energy and velocity is only needed to cause expansion and penetration