Speer 38 special vs 9mm

[mrbladedude]

Speer Gold Dot 9mm and 38 special. So I pulled these numbers off the internet and unless I'm mistaken, the 9mm is quite a bit superior to the 38 special in Speers offerings of the 2 calibers. Is this correct?

Speer Gold Dot 135 grain + P .38 spl
Muzzle Velocity: 860 fps
Muzzle Energy: 222 ft. lbs
"Short barrel"
----------------------
Speer Gold Dot 125 grain + P .38 spl
Muzzle Velocity: 945 fps
Muzzle Energy: 248 ft. lbs
----------------------
Speer Gold Dot 124 grain + P 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1220 fps
Muzzle Energy: 410 ft. lbs

 

[Rock185]

You are correct, where velocity and energy are concerned. I've chronographed quite a bit of 9MM, and and a lesser amount of 38 Spcl. I've not yet encountered any 38 +P that equals standard pressure 9MM with similar bullet weights. With 9MM +P or +P+, the gap widens. I believe some smaller "Boutique" ammo manufacturers produce 38 +P ammo that is warmer than what the major factories offer. This may close the gap between 38 and 9MM.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Yes, in all but the hottest +P or +P+ loads, 9mm will almost always have more energy over .38 special.

The long case of the .38 special fools many people. They see the short 9mm case and assume it is weaker than .38 special, but in fact the opposite is true.

 

[Jenrick]

How exactly are you defining superior? Remember that muzzle energy really doesn't tell you a lot, besides how much torque it would exert, or how much heat it might make.

Ballistic testing is a much better option on how it performs (at least in apples to apples measure, regardless of how valid you think those apples are). If both rounds have adequate penetration through various barriers and similar expansion (which they do), then is really much of a difference between them? For me the much bigger issue is that it's much harder to get a high capacity .38 spl gun then a 9mm one.

-Jenrick

 

[AZAndy]

For me the much bigger issue is that it's much harder to get a high capacity .38 spl gun then a 9mm one.

-Jenrick

That's why Dr. Henry Allan Speedloader's invention is so popular.

 

[Dog Soldier]

I have found the .38 Special 200 grs bullets to shoot very interesting. It provides a most interesting hand load.

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38 Special&Weight=200&type=Handgun&Source=

 

[murf]

the 9mm runs @ 35,000 psi, the 38 special @ 17,000 psi. 9mm +p runs @ 38,500 psi, the 38 special +p runs @ 18,500 psi. even with the extra case capacity (for more powder), the lower pressure limit of the 38spl does not let it come close to 9mm velocities or energies. where the 38spl shines is in the larger case allowing it to shoot heavier bullets (upwards of 200 grains in weight).

murf

 

[pintler]

To follow up on what Murf said, 357 mag has the same SAAMI pressure limit as 9mm, 35000 psi. And Speer's 125 gr Gold Dot 357 load clocks 1450 at the muzzle (according to Speer's data, which matches the OP's numbers for the other loads). For a wild guess, the extra case capacity lets them get more velocity than the 9mm at the same pressure, and the extra barrel length helps some too (Speer uses a '4 inch' barrel for both 357 and 9mm, but the cylinder length isn't counted for revolvers).

If you want 9mm performance, no more, no less from a revolver I expect you could download 357 to the 9mm velocity. To a first order approximation, that should give the same terminal performance, recoil, etc.

The second order effects would be things like slightly lower perceived recoil from an auto, because moving the slide spreads out the recoil some, and whether the bullet was still in it's optimal velocity range, etc.

 

[jmr40]

If you want 9mm performance, no more, no less from a revolver I expect you could download 357 to the 9mm velocity.

It wouldn't have to be downloaded much. Typical real world 125 gr 357 mag fired from 4" barrels is going to be about 1300 fps. You see numbers in ballistic charts showing 1500 fps, but that is from 8" barrels. Most 9mm +p will reach 1250 fps from a 4" pistol that would be about the same overall length as a 2" revolver. Start firing 357 mag from a 2-3" revolver and 9mm beats it. At least with 124/125 gr bullets. If you want to beat 9mm with a 357 revolver you can, but you need to be shooting bullets 180 gr or heavier and from 6" or longer barrels.

 

[pintler]

Jmr40: FWIW, I was using Speer's numbers from this page (click on the 'Detail' button for each load):

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

Both their 9mm 124 and 357 125 loads are from nominal '4 inch' barrels.

 

[earplug]

One of the ammo manufacturers did a velocity test with a ported barrel. The typical 9MM load is much better in the lighter weights then a revolver. .

 

[Eb1]

The numbers show this to be true, but it all depends on which gun you are more comfortable shooting when it comes to actual performance. A hit is a hit, and a miss is a wasted bullet.

 

[boom boom]

It is easy to download .357 to get 9mm+p performance. Try titegroup, believe it or not, for around 1150 to 1250 fps pushing 125 grain bullets. It is accurate and it is a bit kinder to other shooters on indoor ranges regarding noise and flash. It is also a bit kinder to your forcing cone and burns clean. Have also used Universal for such things but switched to titegroup when Universal was hard to get. I don't hunt so I don't need screaming velocities pushing heavy bullets in my .357's.

 

[DMK]

You should be comparing 38 Special GDHP Short Barrel to 9mm GDHP Short Barrel. The standard 9mm GDHP is tested out of a 4" barrel.

Also note that the short barrel .38 Special and .357 are tested with a 2" barrel while the short barrel 9mm is tested with a 3.5" (which is even longer than my 9mm S&W Shield's barrel)

Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P 9mm (3.5" test barrel)
Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
Muzzle Energy: 364 ft. lbs
"Short Barrel"

Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P 357 (2" test barrel)
Muzzle Velocity: 990 fps
Muzzle Energy: 294 ft. lbs
"Short Barrel"

Source: http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

Speer Gold Dot 9mm and 38 special. So I pulled these numbers off the internet and unless I'm mistaken, the 9mm is quite a bit superior to the 38 special in Speers offerings of the 2 calibers. Is this correct?

Speer Gold Dot 135 grain + P .38 spl
Muzzle Velocity: 860 fps
Muzzle Energy: 222 ft. lbs
"Short barrel"
----------------------
Speer Gold Dot 125 grain + P .38 spl
Muzzle Velocity: 945 fps
Muzzle Energy: 248 ft. lbs
----------------------
Speer Gold Dot 124 grain + P 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1220 fps
Muzzle Energy: 410 ft. lbs

 

[gun_with_a_view]

I tested the above two loads several years ago through four layers of denim over wet newspack, the 9mm got on average 12 inches penetration and the 135 grain SB .38 Special got 10 inches penetration. Can't recall if Speer had a 9mm short barrel load back then.

 

[Damon555]

Here's a few interesting things I thought about while I was reading this thread......What would the numbers look like if the 9mm had made a complete pass through? How much energy would the 9mm dump into the target before exiting? Would it be equal to the 38 special's 222 pounds mentioned in the first post? Or are two holes better than one no matter what?

These questions are matter of speculation on my part.....They might be totally irrelevant to some.......

 

[DMK]

Here's a few interesting things I thought about while I was reading this thread......What would the numbers look like if the 9mm had made a complete pass through? How much energy would the 9mm dump into the target before exiting?

What would it matter? If I skewered you straight through with a spear or shot it through you with a spear gun, either way, all that matters is what that spear hit on its way through. If it missed all vital organs you might just get mad and spear me back. If it went through your spine, you're down immediately and permanently.

 

[Schwing]

Just playing Devil's advocate here but there are other considerations like bullet shape that come into play. You can't fire wad cutters out of a 9mm

Honestly, I like both calibers, carry both and enjoy shooting both.

 

[Blue1]

It wouldn't have to be downloaded much. Typical real world 125 gr 357 mag fired from 4" barrels is going to be about 1300 fps. You see numbers in ballistic charts showing 1500 fps, but that is from 8" barrels. Most 9mm +p will reach 1250 fps from a 4" pistol that would be about the same overall length as a 2" revolver. Start firing 357 mag from a 2-3" revolver and 9mm beats it. At least with 124/125 gr bullets. If you want to beat 9mm with a 357 revolver you can, but you need to be shooting bullets 180 gr or heavier and from 6" or longer barrels.

You are discounting energy lost through the cylinder/barrel gap.

Do the same comparison with a Coonan .357 semi-auto with the same barrel length and you will see the .357 Magnum is a vastly superior cartridge to the 9mm.

This shouldn't be required, though; just look at the massive cartridge capacity edge that the .357 Magnum enjoys and this difference is apparent. In pure performance. Considering handgun capacity and other characteristics, you may come to different conclusions.

Blue1

 

[SeanSw]

Has anyone compared specs from a Ruger LCR in .38 special against the same gun chambered in 9mm? That could be the best apples and apples comparison we get. 124gr +p at 1220fps seems unlikely to me from a <2" barrel. I'm not an expert though.

 

[DownInTheDark]

I like it how people compare 9mm +p to a snub nose 357 mag. A 357 magnum excels out of a 6 inch barrel. I would not take a 6 inch 9mm as a backup for bear hunting.

 

[DMK]

I like it how people compare 9mm +p to a snub nose 357 mag. A 357 magnum excels out of a 6 inch barrel. I would not take a 6 inch 9mm as a backup for bear hunting.

Usually because they are looking for a concealed carry gun, not a hunting gun.

You don't need a bear round for two legged vermon. In fact a lot of people carry their .357 snubbies loaded with 38 special.

 

[DMK]

Has anyone compared specs from a Ruger LCR in .38 special against the same gun chambered in 9mm? That could be the best apples and apples comparison we get. 124gr +p at 1220fps seems unlikely to me from a <2" barrel. I'm not an expert though.

I'd love to see that comparison documented well.

 

[Rock185]

I don't have any Speer on hand,but have been chronographing a few different factory 9MM offerings I did have on hand in 2" and 3" real world revolvers.

In the S&W 940 revolver with 2" and Ruger SP-101 with 3" barrel:
Federal 9BP 115 grain jhp: 2"=1013 fps. 3"=1162 fps.
Federal XM9001 115 grain jhp: 2"=1117 fps, 3"=1235 fps.
Federal P9HST3 124 grain +P jhp: 2"=1195 fps, 3"=1291 fps
Winchester 124 grain Q4318 NATO:2"=1079 fps, 3"=1169 fps
IMI Blu/whi box 124 grain NATO ball:2"=1110 fps, 3"=1218 fps

Not trying to convince anyone that this or that load is superior to anything else, just sharing some non-test barrel 9mm revolver info I found interesting.

 

[SeanSw]

Those are satisfying numbers from a 9mm revolver with a cylinder gap. The Federal P9HST appears to beat the factory numbers in the 3" sp101 as well. It looks like 9mm is a fine choice in short barrels if lighter bullets are your preference.