Speer GD "Short Barrel" .38 +P kicks a mite

[P. Plainsman]

I recently tried two varieties of well-regarded .38 Special +P self-defense ammo in America's favorite pocket CCW gun, the S&W 642. I perceived an interesting difference in recoil feel between the "old tech" Remington 158 gr LSWCHP +P (No. R38S12) and the "new tech" Speer Gold Dot "Short Barrel" 135 gr JHP +P.

I found the Speer round kicks more sharply. I got a little red welt on the web of my gun hand in short order using the Gold Dots in the 642. The Remington lead hollowpoints, too, had definite recoil in the light revolver, but it was a slower push, less of a sting.

Which is interesting, because the Remingtons are a pretty stout load as factory .38 goes. 158 @ 800 fps is commonly reported from snubbies. The Speer 135 grainer has been clocked around 860-870 fps from snubs. Simple numbers don't explain the difference in feel.

Must be a difference in powder. I would venture a guess that Speer is using a very fast burning powder behind those wide-mouth 135 Gold Dots. This would make sense, as the Speer round was engineered from scratch to extract good performance from a jacketed bullet in a short revolver barrel -- the engineers may have decided to go for the most rapid acceleration practicable.

Both rounds receive excellent reports for reliable expansion and penetration at snub velocities. I was pleased with the accuracy of each round. (That is to say, I shot some atrocious fliers with each, but it was obviously a question of trigger and gun control. When I bore down and focused carefully on surprise break and sight picture, good groups resulted.)

I am impressed with both rounds and would carry either. I do think the recoil "profile" of the old Remington 158 LSWCHP+P is a bit friendlier, and nothing I've read suggests that it is a step down in power from the Speer. THR member Stephen Camp is a thoughtful advocate of the Remington round; those who haven't read his articles might start here:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38 Special 158gr LSWCHP.htm

I am coming to his way of thinking. Other perspectives?

PS: The Remingtons also proved nicely accurate in my 4" Ruger GP100 and were easy to shoot well. Probably a fine choice for those who prefer to load their house gun with .38. Mr. Camp reports that the lead 158s left his 4" barreled S&W revolvers at a bit shy of 900 fps. Not bad.

 

[SAWBONES]

I've shot both of these loads extensively in my J-frame S&Ws, from the 340PD Scandium to the all-steel Model 60s, and don't find either one to be offensive as regards recoil. (Most of these guns have rubber stocks, FWIW, a few wood.)
The "short barrel" .38 Special+P Gold Dot 135gr JHP is my chosen carry load in .38 Special "snubbies", but I've carried 158gr+P LSWCHP too, with no qualms.

Felt recoil is largely subjective, of course, but it's my feeling that all of the 158gr+P LSWCHP loads from the major makers, including Remington, seem to me to have a bit MORE recoil impulse than the Gold Dot .38 Special+P "short barrel" 135gr JHP; certainly they're dirtier to shoot by far.

I've also found the Gold Dot load to be both more accurate and more precise than the LSWCHP loads, though of all the 158gr LSWCHP+P loads I've tried (Remington, Winchester, Federal), Remington seemed the best for accuracy and precision.

Best.

 

[P. Plainsman]

certainly [the lead hollowpoints are] dirtier to shoot

I agree, the Speer round is clean, while the lead SWCHPs produce a waft of smoke.

Also agree that neither round has unmanageable recoil in an Airweight. (I've never tried the Sc/Ti guns.) Just surprised that the round I expected to be the less pleasant to shoot turned out (to my perception) not to be.

 

[gazpacho]

I agree with your impression of the Speer GD 135gr 38spec. I carry that ammo as reloads for my 340PD. The gun is loaded with Speer GD 135 357mag, which is about the most wicked little handful I've ever held.

BTW I carry 38spec spare ammo 1) for greater ammo commonality with other people and 2) because 5 rounds of 357mag from the 340PD is about all I can stand.

 

[Bob79]

I've shot the 38+P SB out of an "Airweight" and thought that it was a handful. Not uncontrollable, but it sure does slap your hand pretty good. I don't like it.

 

[Jim March]

They're both good rounds. I would choose between them based on two issues:

1) Where do they print in my gun, esp. when it's a fixed-sight piece.

2) If the gun is VERY light the lead loads may "yank" from the cases under recoil easier than the Speer jacketed slugs. Speer claimed to have engineered these rounds for high resistance to "kinetic yanking" and that may be a factor in the latest aluminum/titanium/riboflavin guns.

 

[Biker]

"Kinetik yanking". Thanks. I now have a label for this phenom. It occurs with my Taurus 450 (17 oz) when using 260gr bullets at times.

Biker

 

[Deanimator]

Felt recoil is largely subjective, of course, but it's my feeling that all of the 158gr+P LSWCHP loads from the major makers, including Remington, seem to me to have a bit MORE recoil impulse than the Gold Dot .38 Special+P "short barrel" 135gr JHP; certainly they're dirtier to shoot by far.

I use the Federal equivalent of the Remington load exclusively in my 2" Model 36 and find it both controllable and accurate. Proper grips are a must. With Pachmayrs it was very pleasant to shoot. I have Uncle Mike's(?) on it now. Recoil is a bit more noticeable, but still not uncomfortable, and their quite a bit more concealable.

 

[Jim March]

I hope you're shooting those Federals from a 6" barrel. If you're shooting them from a snubbie, your chances of expansion are ridiculously poor. Federal "wimped out" on that load BIGTIME, it's been clocked up to 100fps slower than the Remmie.

Bet it feels real nice. It won't feel good when you shoot a knife wielding crackhead with it and he doesn't notice.

Whoever brews up the handgun loads at Federal is a neurotic cowardly twitchcase. Every once in a while they'll ship something with a head of steam on it, but not often enough for me to trust 'em.

 

[Tequila jake]

38 Spl 158 gr +P LSWHP

I fired some of these (Winchester versions) and some standard pressure 158 gr LSW from a 340PD and a 638 this past weekend, plus three other lighter weight loads (110 gr, 125 gr, and 148 gr). Both of the 158 gr rounds fired to point of aim at 7 yards, which none of the lighter weight bullets did. The recoil was sharper than with the lighter weight slugs I fired, but it wasn't unmanageable. And the recoil of the +P 158 gr wasn't that much more than that of the standard pressure 158 gr. There did seem to be somewhat more of a torquing or twisting effect, but again, it wasn't unmanageable.

I plan to test both the Cor-Bon 110 gr +P DPX and the Speer 135 gr +P Gold Dot in these guns, but for right now I'm happy with the 158 gr +P LSWHP.

Tequila Jake

 

[TonyB]

The 135 gr are my carry load in my 642..they're not fun to shoot..I usually just shoot a couple of cylinders full at the range(after a bunch of light wadcutters)I like the round as it was made for a snubbie.

 

[Texas Colt]

The Speer 135 +P is the ammo of choice for my Colt Cobra. It has proven to be accurate, clean, and more consistant than 158 grain NyClads I used before.

Recoil isn't bad at all, even with wood boot grips. Although as has already been said, recoil is subjective. I happen to enjoy the thump of recoil

 

[Byron]

A few months ago I tested expansion using a 55 gallon drum full of water. I shot straight down from a distance of about 2 yards. The 3 I fired expanded to about 65 caliber,no jacket sepation and about 2 grains loss of weight. I realize this can be an inaccurate test but it did show expansion.I was using a S&W 642. Byron

 

[TonyB]

Byron..thanks for the info..awesome..

 

[Jim March]

There are a lot of reports on these GD135s, ALL have been positive to date.

 

[fastbolt]

I'm another one of those folks who have always preferred the 158gr LSWCHP/LHP +P load for defensive loads in J-frames. One of the reasons I chose the Airweight, instead of an Airlite (all-lead bullets not recommended for use in Airlites).

I've been using some of the 135gr GDHP +P loads in one of my J-frames since the load was first released, for carry and some of my training/qualification needs, but I still maintain a supply of the Rem S12 158gr LHP +P load.

I also used to use both the W-W 38SPD and the Federal Nyclad version of the 158gr LSWCHP +P load, although I sometimes heard of better expansion results from the Rem S12 load, so when consistent access to it became available I made sure I put some away.

I also agree that I experience more felt recoil when shooting the Speer 135gr GDHP +P than when shooting the Rem 158gr LHP +P (after the first range session, anyway). Now, if you want to shoot something that will make both the Rem 158gr LHP +P and the Speer 135gr GDHP +P seem as though they have less recoil, try some of the Speer 158gr TMJ +P practice loads. Now, those will quickly start to hammer a tender spot on the bottom of the last joint of my index finger.

The last time I watched some gel testing being done with the 135gr GDHP +P load, being fired through one of the short-barreled S&W Scandium J-frames, the velocities recorded ran 828 & 840 fps, with the two recorded shots in bare & 4-layer denim covered gel running 11"/.545/134.1gr rec wgt & 11"/.551/133.9gr, respectively. Not bad for a couple of last minute additions to some testing ... but someone had brought a box of the then-new load along to the demo shoot, and wanted to see how it stacked up against some other .38 Spl loads (the Rem 125gr GS HPJ +P load did very well, too, even though the loads were rather tarnished, grungy and 'well-seasoned' ).

FWIW, since I've recently been carrying a M37-2 off-duty, instead of my 642-1, I've been using some of the newer standard pressure W-W 110gr STHP loads.