Speer Short Barrel Round in a 4" Barrel??

[ArchAngelCD]

In the past few months we have established Speer's Short Barrel .38 +P ammo as a good choice for J frame revolvers. Does anyone know if there would be any disadvantage if you would use their 135 gr Short Barrel .38 +P ammo in a 3" or 4" barrel revolver or would "normal" Speer's 125 gr .38 +P ammo perform better in a non-Snub Nose revolver?

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

The short barrel loading is just a different Gold Dot bullet that is optimized for quick expansion. Loading it into a longer barrel just means it's going to be going faster. Adding 2 or 4 inches to the barrel would also not (IMO) provide cause for worry that the bonded Gold Dot round would fragment.

Without reservation, I load the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum Short Barrel rounds into my 4 inch guns.

 

[wcwhitey]

Archangel, We also use the 135 grainers in the 4" guns as well as the little snubbies. Is it any better than the 158 SWCHP, not sure about that.

 

[universal]

I was wondering the same thing so I contacted Speer directly and asked. I was informed that 135 grain is fine in 4 inch barrel weapons. My understanding is also that the few NYPD officers who still carry revolvers on patrol (mostly 4" model 10s, I believe) use the 135 grain load as well.

I load both my 640 and my model 15 with this load.

 

[Shakey357]

Universal and I must come from the same mold! The information from Speer was enghlightning; but exactly what I expected. I bought three boxes of the new 135 gr. Gold Dot. I wanted to see how they "ran" in my revolvers. I used a 4" GP100, 4" Python and a 3" M65. I really like the round. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a chronometer - which would really give us objective information. FYI, I keep them in the Python and the M65 (wife's gun) in the next-to-bed safe.

 

[Jim March]

Speer's information is correct.

I bought some of the 135 in both 38+P and "short barrel 357" flavors. The latter is supposed to go at least 250fps faster than the 38+P. In examining the rounds side by side, I would bet bottom dollar that it's exactly the same projectile.

Fact: since the Gold Dot jacket design is tightly bonded to the lead (it's a heavy electroplate process) it doesn't tend to separate from the core. So they tend to hold up at high speeds, higher than they were designed for in most cases, and one reason handloaders love 'em. You CAN make them fail at high speed...the 32ACP-designed 60gr Gold Dot will shred if you shoot it hot from 32Magnum or 32NAA cases. But you have to really try.

So.

We know that the 38+P version is happy as a clam at 850fps from a snubby. And it also works at 1,100ish from a magnum snubby.

Throw the 38+P variant out of a 4" barrel and you should get around 950fps - still well within the round's "sweet spot". Hell, you can go out to 6" with the 38+P and you're unlikely to exceed the speed of the 357 version from a 2" SP101 or similar.

Having both versions in hand, I test-fired them side by side in a 4.68" barrel 357 (Ruger New Vaquero). The 38+Ps did 3" groups at 25yds, the 357s did 2" and were very pleasant to shoot. At the time I still had the full sharp checkering on the factory plastic grips and the Doubletap 125s doing more than 1,500fps were barely controllable (and did 5" groups).

Is a 4"+ barrel going to drive the 357 flavor too fast? I don't really know. It's right on the ragged edge most likely! It might come down to gap size, quality of the individual barrel and just how fast it's spitting them out.

But the 38+P I would shoot out of a 4" or 6" barrel with no reservations at all, and I've treated it as an urban carry load in that New Vaq .

 

[Diamondback]

Thank you Jim !...I was looking for this information last night and couldn't locate any thing in my files. This is good to know.

- Regards

 

[universal]

Speer's information is correct.

I bought some of the 135 in both 38+P and "short barrel 357" flavors. The latter is supposed to go at least 250fps faster than the 38+P. In examining the rounds side by side, I would bet bottom dollar that it's exactly the same projectile.

Fact: since the Gold Dot jacket design is tightly bonded to the lead (it's a heavy electroplate process) it doesn't tend to separate from the core. So they tend to hold up at high speeds, higher than they were designed for in most cases, and one reason handloaders love 'em. You CAN make them fail at high speed...the 32ACP-designed 60gr Gold Dot will shred if you shoot it hot from 32Magnum or 32NAA cases. But you have to really try.

So.

We know that the 38+P version is happy as a clam at 850fps from a snubby. And it also works at 1,100ish from a magnum snubby.

Throw the 38+P variant out of a 4" barrel and you should get around 950fps - still well within the round's "sweet spot". Hell, you can go out to 6" with the 38+P and you're unlikely to exceed the speed of the 357 version from a 2" SP101 or similar.

Having both versions in hand, I test-fired them side by side in a 4.68" barrel 357 (Ruger New Vaquero). The 38+Ps did 3" groups at 25yds, the 357s did 2" and were very pleasant to shoot. At the time I still had the full sharp checkering on the factory plastic grips and the Doubletap 125s doing more than 1,500fps were barely controllable (and did 5" groups).

Is a 4"+ barrel going to drive the 357 flavor too fast? I don't really know. It's right on the ragged edge most likely! It might come down to gap size, quality of the individual barrel and just how fast it's spitting them out.

But the 38+P I would shoot out of a 4" or 6" barrel with no reservations at all, and I've treated it as an urban carry load in that New Vaq .

Good post!

 

[Jim March]

While I'm at it, one more detail.

The 38+P is probably not inherently less accurate than the 357. I think the accuracy difference was due to the 357 version filling my 357 chambers better.

Put another way...say you buy a Freedom Arms '97 in 357Mag. And you pay the extra to get a second cylinder that's really 38spl made up to go with it. I'd bet that at least out to 50yds or so, the 357 and 38+P versions of this ammo will perform identically so long as you put each in it's "own" cylinder.

Also note that some 357 guns show more favoritism towards 357-length ammo (versus 38) than others. In some it won't make a difference, in mine it does.

I don't see the 33% accuracy loss in the 38 version as being detrimental in most defensive shootings.

Each gun is different. Hell, each *specimen* of gun may "like" different ammo best, even within the same make, model and caliber. You have to range-test what you're planning on carrying.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you for all the information Jim. I was wondering if you would be willing to test the Speer 135 gr Short Barrel .38 +P against the 125 gr .38 +P round. I am very interested if the Short Barrel .38 +P round performs as well as their 125 gr .38 +P round from a longer barrel.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

I load 200gr. wfngc hardcast in my 4" gp100 and granted the velocity isn't the best but accuracy is decent.

 

[Jim March]

I've actually had a rough time *finding* any 125gr 38+P Gold Dots. Esp. now that Speer has dried up the supplies they were selling to smaller ammo houses like Black Hills, Doubletap, Buffbore, etc.

Plus...I'm...not really interested in the breed. I think the 135 is a genuine advancement as 38+P goes and has merit as a light-duty 357.

Hmmm.

OK. One reason people have run hollowpoints in some forms of competition shooting for years is to get as much barrel/bullet contact in a given weight as possible. It's also why target wadcutters are popular in some sports. A big hollowpoint cavity lets you put more contact patch out.

This is also why the all-copper Barnes/Cor-Bon loads make sense - they're big for a given weight (due to copper being less dense than lead).

If you look at bullet weights and shapes within a given caliber you start to notice this trend.

The Speer 135's big, BIG cavity and a bit of extra weight over the 125 class slugs are both going to have a good influence on accuracy. The only 38/357 125gr-and-under projectiles that it didn't make obsolete are those that can handle speeds above it's range (above *approximately* 1,200fps, not certain exactly) or those that are built along similar lines like the Cor-Bon DPX 110/125 and the Winchester 130gr Supreme 38+P.

I really believe the Winnie 130 influenced the Speer 135 as it pre-dates it by about two years or so and sure as hell looks similar.

The Speer "high speed" 125gr Gold Dot as used by Doubletap, Buffalo Bore and others has a tiny "dimple" of a hollowpoint. Hell, it barely qualifies for the term. It's meant to fly up past 1,400ish and I would guess as far past it as practical in a handgun. The other well known 125 full house slug by Remington also has a teensy little hollowpoint barely worthy of the term. These loads are not known for accuracy and the Doubletap 125s I tried sure as hell showed it. I wasn't shooting off-hand, I was shooting from a borrowed bench rest thing the range had, so I don't think the steep recoil of that round threw my accuracy off.

If I was handloading, which I hope to soon, I would be very very interested in the Barnes 140gr all-copper hollowpoint they sell as a reloading component. It should work great at around 1,300ish FPS and if anything be more accurate than Cor-Bon's 125gr flavor. The Barnes 140 should give a contact patch somewhere close to a conventional 158gr JHP.

---

Mas Ayoob was along saying similar things . The only point on which I might differ with Mas is in the 158gr all-lead +P hollowpoints, esp. the Remington and Buffbore. As long as your gun is heavy enough (15oz or more, and you're definately OK by 17oz) to resist bullet yanking, the Remmie 158+P LSWC-HP is, I believe, every bit as good as the Gold Dot 135+P (yet the Remmie is cheaper) and the BuffBore version trounces it soundly (at a high price!).

Once you're dealing with a 10.5oz or 12.5oz S&W ultralight, the Gold Dot 135+P is the undisputed best load you can stick in that gun, period, end of discussion, use Winnie 130+P or Cor-Bon 110+P DPX only as a fallbacks if the 135s ain't around.

Finally, in a classic design fixed-sight 38, the Remmie 158 will be a tad less stressful on the gun and more likely to print to point of aim than the GD 135+P. The Winchester 158+P will be the same, and expand properly in a 4" or longer barrel (slightly harder lead than Remmie 158s).

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Jim,
Thank you again for all the information you provide. As always, it's a big help im making informed decisions on what ammo to choose.

 

[Jim March]

Cool.

One other interesting bit on these: newer powder types are having an effect too - not all the magic is happening via advanced projectiles.

10+ years ago we would have had a hard time driving jacketed 135s at 850fps out of a snubbie without exceeding rational pressure levels (even "+P").

We've seen a bunch of new loads of late that are connected in large part to new powders: Doubletap driving 125s past 1,600fps in the 357, Buffalo Bore doing flat-out wild stuff in 38 and 357, etc. These are all happening around the same time for a reason: new powders that do big power "overall" but not by way of a sudden sharp spike.

If a powder can deliver 16,000psi for longer duration than a powder that spikes to 20,000psi, yet both drive the same bullet the same speed, the lower-pressure powder is a breakthrough not because of how much power it delivers, but rather how it delivers the power.

The best of these speed/power breakthroughs seem to be happening in classic wheelgun rounds with big case volumes.

One powder suspected of being part of the recipes in some Doubletap and Buffbore powders is this one:

http://gunblast.com/Hodgdon_Lil_Gun.htm

If Jeff is right and it's particularly easy to meter, it would allow running closer to the "edge" in performance in commercial bulk loading rigs without spitting out 1 in 3,000 rounds or so that exceed the "edge". Which if you're Doubletap (or Speer or Cor-bon or similar) you'd damned well better NOT do.

Of course...each ammo house carefully guards their recipes . And this is only one of a number of new powders with cool new capabilities...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Yeah, I knew about the new powders. Not only are they pushing bullets faster with less preasure but they are doing it with less smoke and much less of a fireball. (although, sometimes I like the fireball )

Ain't it great that the "Brain Power People" didn't forget about the ammo industry!!

 

[Gary A]

Jim - I would like your thoughts on the matter of pressure which you brought up. Speer's published technical paper on the 135 Gold Dot .38 states that the Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) is 21,500 psi. Since I think that is high for a plus P .38, I e-mailed them asking about it. I received a reply which stated that the 21,500 psi is a "maximum probable lot mean" and explained what that was...having to do with how many loads would test below or above that figure. The email said MAP is really about 20,000 psi (still higher than what at least used to be the upper limit for +P at 18,500 psi). I have noticed the technical paper has never been changed and still lists the MAP as 21,500.
I think the Speer load is very good, but I question its continued use in older alloy-framed revolvers. What are your thoughts? I would add that Speer tested the load with a steel Model 640.

 

[Jim March]

I agree.

Vintage alloy snubbies and +P are known to be problematic when they meet. The 135s will stress such pieces to the limit.

I don't have a good answer for such critters other than handloading. I strongly suspect that the best answer is a 148gr plain lead wadcutter doing about 800fps.

Which nobody makes.

Next best thing is a plain lead 158gr Keith loaded to about the limits of what 38spl (standard pressure) can do. And THAT you can get...Georgia Arms for starters.

Ammoman.com *sometimes* get batches of 125gr standard pressure Fed Nyclads. He's out right now.

They replaced that round with a wide-cavity 110gr JHP standard pressure "personal defense" load, which...well it's weird, some reports has the stuff barely pulling 750fps in a snub, others have it doing 75-100fps more range (read: "barely respectable"). It's still current production. Even if you chrony some past 800fps in your gun, if they DO open up I would question their penetration.

158 Keiths will penetrate .

--------

But, this is only if you REALLY have to press such a thing into service. Seriously: if you have an old Colt Agent, S&W 12 or whatever, it's safe queen material. M'kay?

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

Jim, do you do any sort of testing? Or do you gather test material from others? I'm curious, and do my own limited testing, but my testing involved water, which is good in case I'm ever attacked by water bottles...otherwise, it's "less than scientific."

I also happen to have a source for Gold Dot 125 +P .38 rounds. I have several boxes on hand, as well a box or two of standard pressure loads. If you happen to have some gel available, well, we might be able to dispel or prove a few theories that seem to be prevalent here and elsewhere.

Edit: Just by looking, the 125 GD round and the 135 SB GD round are VERY similar, with a deep hollow point cavity. I think maybe the shape of the cavity is different with the SB round, and perhaps it contains less jacket and more lead, hence the extra weight.

 

[Jim March]

I haven't done my own expansion tests, only limited accuracy/recoil tests.

I have however studied a LOT of post-shot photos of bullets after they've gone through water, wet newspapers, mud, etc.

A lot of the pictures are now offline. Ammolabs had a bunch of great data now lost. Several magazines have published such studies and then only left them online briefly.

At present Stephen Camp has one of the best such bodies of work, followed very closely by the "Box 'o truth" guy. But those are a bit less formal than most others.

------

From the pictures I've seen, the biggest noticable difference between the low-velocity Gold Dot 125 and the 135 is that the latter is longer. Try using a kinetic bullet puller to disassemble both and it should be obvious...I'm not 100% sure because photos can show squirrelly things sometimes.

It would also be interesting to see if the powder charge looks significantly different. Most of these newer lower-pressure powders are fairly bulky. If the powder charge volume had gone up with the 135, that would be a clue as to what's going on...

-------

As to who to give a handful of each to for testing...hrm...Stephen Camp has been shooting into mud, which...is probably better than water but...

This guy has been shooting gel:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=255243&highlight=gelatin

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

tons of info...thanks everyone