Speer Gold Dot rifle?

[.cheese.]

I saw this post at TFL:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256812

and was actually wondering the same thing just the other day, whether or not Speer makes rifle ammo with their Gold-Dot design.

I know they make .22lr bullets for CCI's Velocitor ammo (all ATK at the end of the day anyways).



However, Speer's website does not show it,

http://www.speer-ammo.com/

nor does the LE.ATK.COM site for Speer:

http://le.atk.com/Interior.asp?section=2&page=pages/ccispeer/ccispeer_Home.asp

I did see they make Lawman ammo in .223 - but not GD?

So, is this a discontinued product or something? The packaging described by the TFL member sounds like the current (new style) packaging for Speer ammo as opposed to either the old gold LE boxes

or the old black w/grid boxes:

Here is current packaging as I know it (or at least what the recent case I've received has):

so between that matching the poster's description, and the fact that the post was about a week and a half ago, I'm hesitant to just say that it's an older discontinued product.

also, Speer's bullet site doesn't list it either: http://www.speer-bullets.com/

and Midway doesn't list it..... nor does Natchez.

 

[eldon519]

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/ballistics/rimfire.aspx

It's on CCI's webpage, but it doesn't mention the Speer Gold Dots. Velocitor is a CCI product. They do refer to it as a gilded hollow point though which is basically what a Gold Dot is.

 

[.cheese.]

sorry, maybe I misworded my original post.

I know that CCI's Velocitor has Speer Gold Dot bullets.

That's not the question, the question is that somebody over at TFL bought .223 Speer Gold Dot (bullet and branded ammo) that came in the standard current Speer Gold Dot box. In other words, .223 both manufactured by and sold under the brand name of Speer Gold Dot. It seems it's marked LE from the description, but even LE.ATK.COM doesn't list it.

 

[Pumpkinheaver]

They make .22Mag ammo with gold dots don't they?

 

[.cheese.]

I'm assuming that's another CCI product using Speer Gold Dot bullets.

This is unique in that it's Speer Gold Dot branded - law enforcement marked - .223 Remington

I think I should shoot an email off to Speer.

 

[rdaines]

My comments are of no help to you but here is another advantage toa rifle that shoots pistol cartridges (Lever guns), I can reload with .357 Gold Dots, .41 and .44 Gold Dots.

 

[.cheese.]

lol. That's fantastic and all, but yeah - doesn't really help much here.

 

[.cheese.]

update thanks to the OP of the thread at TFL:

here are images of the ammo in question (that is not listed on Speer's site):





I'm going to have to contact Speer (and Mirage Technologies) about this.

I know this is the current packaging as I just received yet another case a couple days ago of Speer ammo.

according to the poster at TFL, this was issued to him. So no word on whether it's civilian-available yet.

 

[.cheese.]

anybody run across this stuff in stores yet?

I can't find it.

 

[.cheese.]

just checking.... anybody see this stuff yet?

 

[.cheese.]

update 4/15/08

it's up on the LE ATK site:

http://www.le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/rifle/default.aspx

223 Rem and 308 Win Gold Dot

still some odd stuff left out, like, what is the deal with this GDSP bullet, and why are there two 64 grain 223 offerings with the same bullet and (I assume), but different ballistics? It must be that the don't have the same powder loads I guess.

 

[pwrtool45]

Yes, I've seen (somewhere) rifle cartridges in boxes similar to what is depicted marked as "Gold Dots."

According to the link you posted, one is listed at 3000fps (from a 24" barrel ) and the other is listed at 3050fps (also from a 24" barrel). So yes, they have "different" ballistics.

Anyway, it looks like the "Gold Dot" bullet is the same bonded JSP bullet used in Federal's tactical line, although it's listed at 62gr instead of 64gr. The same bullet is also sold to reloaders (although only in 55gr format) as the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Also, to split the difference there's currently some contract overrun (in the AE boxes) of Federal "223" with a 63gr bonded JSP listed at 3000fps.

AFAIK (and it's worth what you paid for it) these bullets are the same. Speer makes a .224" bonded JSP in two weights, 55gr and 62gr. If you were to pull that "64" grain bullet, you'd probably find its nominal weight to be 62 grains (or a slightly different lead alloy is used for the core). It's likely marked as "64" grain (or "63" grain for the AE boxed overrun stuff) because that's what the target contracts called for; likely something such as "a nominal bullet weight of 64 grains + 2 grains" or somesuch. Again, as mentioned it's also possible that the specific lead alloy of the core gets changed slightly to meet weight requirements given in a contract's language.

Still, though, unless someone chimes in telling me what a bloody fool I am, I'd bet money that these "different" bullets are all the same. The Gold Dot you're concerned about is what reloaders call a TBBC and is also the same as what Federal loads in their 223 "Tactical" line.

The "Gold Dot" family is pretty broad, anyway. The only thing it really refers to is the jacket/core bonding process.

 

[DMK]

why are there two 64 grain 223 offerings with the same bullet and (I assume), but different ballistics? It must be that the don't have the same powder loads I guess.

One is definitely a bit hotter than the other, but both are pretty hot. I'll bet they have different accuracy specs with one for shorter barrels and designed more for closer range terminal effect, but that's just a guess.

All three seem to be 5.56 loads. 3000fps and 3050fps for 64gr and 3220fps for 55gr. That's M193 and M855 speeds. bet they won't be selling this to non-LEO civilians any time soon.

The 308 stuff is pretty hot too at 2820fps for 150gr and 2650 for 168gr.

one is listed at 3000fps (from a 24" barrel ) and the other is listed at 3050fps (also from a 24" barrel).

Oh, I didn't notice that. That's a bit shady actually. What LEO agency fields 24" barrelled AR15s?

That doesn't sounds as great as I initially thought then. I made the assumption that these speeds were measured from 20" barrels.

 

[.cheese.]

The "Gold Dot" family is pretty broad, anyway. The only thing it really refers to is the jacket/core bonding process.

Electro-plating layer by layer right?

All of my handgun ammo is Gold-Dot as I like the controlled expansion they have, plus the short-barrel loadings are great.

I wonder if maybe they can somehow use that short-barrel technology on rifle bullets to work out the velocity problems of 10.5", 14", and 16" AR barrels (mainly 10.5 and 14).

I don't know that this stuff won't be available to civvies. I found a place online that I can buy Hornady TAP 5.56, so I'd imagine at some point the Federal and Speer LE offerings will be available via similar channels. It's not illegal, it's just against company policy.

 

[Ol` Joe]

Speer is part of ATK as is Alliant powder, Federal Cartridge, CCI.
Federal has had their Fusion line out for better then a year now. I wonder if it is the same as Speers "new Gold Dot"? Federal advertized the Fusion as being built by Speer at one time and the construction is very similar.

 

[strat81]

I called Federal about the recent American Eagle 63gr "Gold Dot" that's been on the market. This is what I was told:
-It is a "Fusion-type" bullet and is made on the same line as the Fusion bullet
-It is bonded.
-Expect 80+% weight retention when using this bullet.
-It has a boat tail
-MV is 3020fps from a 24" barrel
-1255 ft-lbs of energy

I've seen the ammo at Sportsmans Guide and Natchez. IMO, it looks like a very good alternative to the Winchester 64gr Power Point that is supposedly good for barrier penetration.

 

[pwrtool45]

All of my handgun ammo is Gold-Dot as I like the controlled expansion they have, plus the short-barrel loadings are great.

I wonder if maybe they can somehow use that short-barrel technology on rifle bullets to work out the velocity problems of 10.5", 14", and 16" AR barrels (mainly 10.5 and 14).

The problem with short barreled 223s is a bit different than the problem with short barreled pistol rounds. The Speer "short barrel" Gold Dots likely use a thinner jacket to facilitate expansion at lower velocities (amongst other things). The problem with SBRs and current "problematic" ammo is the reliance on a manufacturing byproduct (already thin jackets without the structural integrity to maintain shape when they yaw above a given velocity threshold) to facilitate the primary wounding mechanism (not controlled expansion like a JHP but complete bullet fragmentation of FMJs and OTMs). JSPs use a different deformation mechanism altogether; I wouldn't doubt that the 10.5" ARs still produce sufficient expansion with standard JSP bullets, bonded or not. Not really much of a need for a "short barrel .223" Gold Dot, as they're completely different bullet types with different wounding mechanisms. The standard Gold Dot rifle bullet probably works fine in an SBR; that's not the case for short barreled pistols, though.

Federal's "Fusion" is another name brand that doesn't really mean much. I mean, they've got primers (for muzzleloaders, no less) under that brand. As strat81 says, Federal's claim of a "fusion-type bullet" probably means its a Fusion bullet with a slightly different lead alloy for the core to meet weight requirements put forth in the contract language.

Again, though, that's just if I had to guess. I mean, Federal's Fusion and Speer's (rifle) Gold Dot are likely to be about as different as Hornady's V-Max and Nosler's Ballistic Tip. They could have even worked together to come up with whichever is the newest variant; think Winchester/Nosler's "Combined Technology" Ballistic Silvertip.

As further postulation (since as Ol Joe points out, both Federal and Speer are owned by ATK) I'd imagine that both designs will continue to be offered for a few years, then when a major redesign is necessary, one will be discontinued (probably the "Fusion") and one will receive the redesign. Given how parent companies often act, the folks at Federal who design the Fusion bullet might even be reassigned ("loaned to speer") by their dept's ATK boss to assist the Speer folks' new "Gold Dot 2" bullet design. Not likely, maybe, but a possibility. (Another possibility is that the designers are pink slipped, permanently reassigned or that Federal/Speer are even merged.) Right now, both companies are selling every bullet they can make. ATK doesn't likely view intercompany competition as a problem. Later on, when it looks like they're spending resources (e.g. money) on R&D for competing products, one will get canned. As it is, both designs exist. If a contract goes to one or the other, it's a gain for ATK. One might pick up customers that they other wouldn't have. (All this assuming, of course, that they're not actually the very same, identical bullet, which is a possibility.)

Anyway, just some 10:30 incoherent rambling by someone who will be at work at 7:00 tomorrow.

 

[45crittergitter]

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=FAXMAE223SP&src=BE264

 

[Destructo6]

They must be using the "Gold Dot" name simply for recognition rather than a reference to the actual gold dot seen with their pistol ammo. This stuff simply has a truncated cone with an exposed lead tip.