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Springfield Rant

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BigG,

Tamara: Gold is a pretty reliable store of value but it aint worth 1,300 an ounce, less I been sleeping. :eek:

No, but a nice Double Eagle is, like a Colt SAA, considered a "collector's item" and can be priced above its intrinsic value due to demand. ;)
 
Plastic

Tamara (who paid big money to replace the steel trigger in the 1911 on her hip with a plastic... excuse me, "polycarbonate" one.

Dang! If'n you hadda said somethin', I'd have given ya one...

Oh yeah...I ain't talkin' about labor-intensive hand-fitted pistols
like pre-war Colts...I'm talkin' re-toleranced, WW2 GI spec guns that
went together via the mostol drop-in method. It worked well then, and it's still workin' today on the entry-level guns...and some of the higher-end examples. All they gotta do is spend a few more dollars for real steel parts and pass the cost along...Shuckins! They can even mark'em up 15% if'n
they want to. The GI Springer that I upgraded for 200 bucks is equal to...
and in some ways...superior to the old USGI pistols. This can be done.
I ain't askin for a hand-built, match-grade pistol...Just a good old rough and tumble 1911 that works. If I want hand-built, I can do that for about half the cost of havin' it done.

The notion that the only really good 1911s are be hand-fitted just
ain't so.
 
Nah. Didn't want a Colt nylon unit (although they're a lot better trigger than most folks give them credit for being.) I'm fond of STI's plastic & titanium triggers. They're consistent, light, and tend to fit well with a minimum of jiggery-pokery to get 'em just right. After unhappy experiences with McCormick and Wilson units, I tried one of the STI's and became a fan. :)
 
re: Plastic

STI...Yep. That was the one I gave away about a month ago.
It came out of a gun with a busted frame. The guy cannabalized it
and gave me the trigger. He was gonna use an old Videki, and didn't
want it any more. One of my friends saw it and thought it was neat-lookin'
I stuck it in his gun and made him happy...
 
dubb-1:

Thanks for the price quote ... :)

Now I realize that anyone's "pro-line" will have every customer snagging and tactical gadget known to man, and a pistol costing $2,100 + should be entirely "real steel," but obviously if steel parts were purchased in quantity a more basic gun (not necessarily pure USGI) could be marketed for well under half that price.

Colt is close. If they replaced the sear and disconector, and maybe the manual safety, they'd almost have what Tuner is talking about, and the additional cost wouldn't be that much. However I don't think they will, because they feel the need to meet their competitors' price points for similar products.

Of course many of today's buyers want to buy the old-time quality gun for around $500.00 or less, but that isn't going to happen. The trouble is, most of these buyers think that they are buying old-time quality for the rock-bottom price because they don't understand how today's guns are different then the older ones. Members of this forum are an exception, not the rule.

I think what Tuner (and I) are, and have been saying is that gun buyers should be informed as to exactly what it is they are buying - in other words, expose the warts. Then explain the upgrade-to-better-parts options. I think a truely informed customer base will soon demand the changes under discussion if they are reasonably priced, which they can be.
 
Apples and Oranges

Fuff...lemme try a different perspective and see if it'll make sense.

Several years ago, an automaker would build the same car in
various guises that were tailored to fit different budgets and/or desires.

A baseline Chevy Impala with the 327 2-barrel engine and Powerglide
transmission, but without niceties like power steering and brakes, electric
windows, air conditioning and leather seats, etc. etc. was a bargain basement means of transportation. You could even order one without
hubcaps and save another 20 bucks...( Just dated myself)

The optioned-out Impala had all these features and more...and the cost
could run to 2 thousand dollars over the price the "base" car. A
lot of money in those days, considering that the base car ran about
35 hundred and change...

Both were cars...Both would get a body to the grocery store and back.
Both had the standard 12 month/12000 mile warranty...and both cars
had exactly the same engine and transmission. In other words, the difference in cost was in the accessories. Not necessary for the purpose
of transportation, but very nice if one could afford or justify the cost of the luxury model. The important parts of the cars...underneath the fancy
stuff...were exactly the same. Some folks wanted comfort and Bling-Bling...some just wanted dependable transportation...for others,
the base car was all that they could afford.

If the gun manufacturers would but see the logic in this...
 
Yes, Tuner. I would say you were "right on."

And I remember those cars too. I also remember that when the American car manufacturers abandonded this way of doing things the foreigh car builders came in with better quality/better made autos and took over a lion share of the market.
 
Very interesting thread. Quite entertaining as well. While I can see most points and agree with many regarding quality let me just chime in from the general publics point of view......

Springfield generally makes a great product. Yes, some of the parts are not as good but if you want a higher end quality milspec you can get a Colt series 70 repro for $850. For the budget minded the Springfield fits the bill. Shoot it recreationally for a while and most likely it will do you fine. If you have a problem with the small parts have them replaced. (Aftermarket or though their lifetime warranty) The cost of replacing those small parts is much easier on the wallet than pushing out $850 or +1000 for a high end milspec. Anyone remember that Tussey Milspec in AH? Stickershock...... I'd pass without a second thought on that one.....

If I was going to use it for duty it still makes a great gun. But a milspec for $500 and put $100-150 in for small part upgrades and your probably gonna wind up with a better gun than you'd get off the shelf. Plus you could modify it the way you want it.

When you balance cost and function in general I think Springfield is doing a fine job.
 
Lion's Share

Fuff said:

And I remember those cars too. I also remember that when the American car manufacturers abandonded this way of doing things the foreigh car builders came in with better quality/better made autos and took over a lion share of the market.

Yeah...Kinda like what happened when folks suddenly realized what
Norincos were built of...it was Nellie bar the Door! ...until Klinton and Kompany killed it.

I STILL believe that the Big Three looked at those things and lobbied to
get'em stopped. Not a pretty 1911, but one of the toughest and most
reliable to come down the pike in 25 years...

Politics...methinks.:scrutiny:
 
1911Tuner,

Let me give you a better auto analogy.

My Z3 came with super-soft compound Michelin Pilot Sports and racy brake pads. These convert any change of direction or acceleration into an expensive cloud of black dust. When they wear out, guess what most owners replace them with? That's right, cheaper tires and brake pads that, while they may wear like Rug-Rite carpet, don't do a damn thing in the turning or stopping department.

Cheaper cars, like current Chevy Impalas, make do with tires and brake pads that I wouldn't cross the street to spit on, but they sell like hotcakes. Wonder why? (Far as I'm concerned, most OEM brake pads are barely adequate. For a few bucks more per car, they could shave a dozen feet off stopping distance, but they'd "Wear out too fast and cost too much money!")


The problem with your "Dream Mil-Spec 1911" is that it would cross the price line into territory currently being haunted by "loaded" models. It wouldn't be as accurate, and would certainly be less feature-rich. Five cantankerous 1911 guys would buy one, because they're just like the old ones, five more perfectionists would buy them because they were cost-effective platforms to build a perfectly personalized gun on, and the remaining 499,990 1911 buyers would ignore them in favor of the Charles Daley because it's cheaper, or the Kimber Custom Target, because it has more bells and whistles. (If it was made by Springfield or Kimber, bump that number back up to 499,995, because five 1911 guys wouldn't buy it because it didn't have a horsey on it.)

If you remain cynical about your fellow humans, you get disappointed a lot less often. ;)

Sincerely,
Tam
Who thinks that most any 1911 under $1500 today is a "pistol starter kit."
 
1911Tuner,

Kinda like what happened when folks suddenly realized what
Norincos were built of...it was Nellie bar the Door! ...until Klinton and Kompany killed it.

I STILL believe that the Big Three looked at those things and lobbied to
get'em stopped. Not a pretty 1911, but one of the toughest and most
reliable to come down the pike in 25 years...

Yeah, using slave labor will sure keep the overhead down. :rolleyes: ;)

Good guns, but seen too many where "heat treat" was apparently mistranslated in the ChiCom instruction manuals, and others that could have used a lot better QC in the fitting department. I don't get as goo-goo eyed over them as I used to, but I'll say that they're generally a safe bet if you want a gun assembled the Old Way that should need only minor work at best to bring it up to snuff...
 
Slave Labor

Yeah, using slave labor will sure keep the overhead down.

That argument won't really hold water any more.

First...any documentation that the workers didn't get paid even a shilling
for their labor? Probably not big wages, but given the present economy,
ti would be some sort of regular income...

Second...Look under the hood of your car. See any parts marked:
Made in Mexico...? Really think that the factory workers down there get
big wages or 401k plans and profit sharing? Not...

How about the gasoline that we buy that comes from mideastern oil?
Think the oil workers in Yemen or Kuwait are living well on the wages that they earn?

Perspective...

And the Entry-level 1911 of my dreams is within reach of 600 dollars...retail.
Springfield just busted the market wide open with the "Starter Kit." All
they gotta do now is tend to inside story.

Cheers!

Tuner
 
Notwithstanding cost factors, there is a legal principle governing goods sold known as"warranty of merchantability". This means the goods are reasonably fit for their intended purpose, and is meant to assure the buyer a minimum level of quality.

So the question regarding Springfield is: Does the buyer know and expect the $400-$500 firearm to fail within 500-1000 rds due to a faulty extractor?

I would submit that a reasonable man would not. Tuner's Impala analogy is spot on. The bare bones Impala can be expected to run as long as the loaded model, the internals are the same. Again, the reasoning "If we made a crappy product, it's only because you didn't pay us enough" fails.
 
As I read through this thread I have had a few good chuckles. Toyota does not make 4Runners like my '85 anymore. They don't have to, they just have to hold together longer than a Ford Exploder or a Heap Cherokee. My friend sure appreciates his '92 Chevy Blazer a lot more than he would a '93, its worth more too.
I like my series 1 Kimber, and I have been replacing the MIM internals as they wear out. When it was brand new it shot as good as any high dollar custom pistol of my experience, which was why I purchased it. Now that they have established thier name and position in the market the time has come to profit, as much as the market will bear.
And, you know, my Glock 19 keeps chugging right along, as dependable as death and taxes.:evil:
 
End Game

Hey hey NMSHooter! If we ain't good for a laugh, we just ain't much good nohow...:D

This one'll die soon...I've got a range session with a guy who just bought
a Kimber-2 and a Chuckie D(Both slightly used) and wants to ge try'em out...so I may have a whole 'nother Rant soon.:p How do I figger that?
Well...accordin' to what he told me on the phone, the price was a little
too good. What's that about... "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is." :D We shall see...This'll be my first inside look at a Daly. I remain
optimistic, however...

Cheers!

Tuner
 
1911Tuner,

Great Jumpin' Jehosephat! Logic prevails! The engines and transmissions were exactly the same! Yes!

As are the frame and slide, which do you diddly's worth of good as you slide off the curve because of your cheapo extract... er, I mean tires. ;) (And of course there's no difference between ten- and twelve-bolt, posi and non rearends. Don't spend more for the stiffer shocks, either, since the engine and tranny are the same... But this metaphor is stretched all the hell outta shape, now. :p )


Yes, logic prevails. (Which, as we all know, is internet-speak for "You agree with me!" ;) )Great jumpin' frickin' Jehosaphat. :neener:


______________
Why does Chevy put cheap tires on the Cavalier? Don't they know that Pirellis could make the difference between life and death on a mountain road in that low-budget econobox?!?!
 
ROFL

As are the frame and slide, which do you diddly's worth of good as you slide off the curve because of your cheapo extract... er, I mean tires.

:confused: :scrutiny: :confused:

OH! Okay...Tires...Brake pads...oil filters and such are more
like recoil springs. Gotta change'em ever' so often.

Frame and slides aremore like the chassis and drive line...Extractors,
hammers, sears, etc. are like pistons, rings and bearings. Shouldn't
need replacement for a loooooong time....but recoil springs and
brake pads are routine maintenence items.
_________________________

and:

Yes, logic prevails. (Which, as we all know, is internet-speak for "You agree with me!"

It can also mean that the logical one sees the light and understands that
the switch needs to be turned on before light will emit.:neener:

Tuner<---------ducks
 
Remember, Tuner, women ALWAYS get the last word.

Except in my house, as the man, I always get the last two words.



















"Yes, dear"
 
I needed to read this thread. My day went from bad to worse...reading has cheered me up some.
Fond memories of a'63 SS Impala, a girl and a place out west of me, now a subdivison. Got memories tho'.
Z3's are cool...I"m trying to figure how Tamara gets in and out of one. I'm 6' and it is easier for me leave the door shut , put a hand on the windshield and one on the head rest to hop in....getting up I push up out of seat and do reverse...

I stay in trouble whether it be cars, woman or guns. Must be a "guy" thing.
I'm consistent tho', that count for anything...didn't think so.

My dealie when it came to the price of quality and services was " How much quality am I getting for this much money".

I saw my mfgs change, I tried to educate my customers with side by side comparisons. I tried to focus on the most important features and these should have the monies spent focused more on those features. Sometimes I had to work backwards, taking the budget and trying to fit it. I would show the difference in quality for more monies. NOT to make a bigger sale , instead to let the customer know what they could get in quality for X number of $ more. Thier decison.

Yeah I must be a old foggie or something...
 
I had trouble with the extractor on the MilSpec Springfield I bought a year or two ago and the extractor failed after ten boxes of ammo.The ordeal (posted here,GB,and GT) SA's customer disservice put forth steered me away from Springfield for life.
 
For Life

CWatson said:

SA's customer disservice put forth steered me away from Springfield for life.

I feel your pain, sir...but there's hope in the form of Ed Brown Hardcore
and Wilson Bulletproof extractors. I understand that Caspian also has a good one. C&S are excellent, but need modification to work...which voids
the warranty.

Fortunate that you weren't fighting for your life or that of your family when that 2-dollar part shut the gun down, I'd say...

SPRINGFIELD! FIND A NEW SUPPLIER FOR YOUR EXTRACTORS!

Cheers!

Tuner
 
re:

I...I'm sorry. That was insensitive of me...I should have said:

Springfield dear, Your extractors are somewhat challenged during
case-removal function. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could
you please consider having a group session with your bean count...er
your accountants and ask them to please reconsider their position on this matter before they wind up down at the Piggly-Wiggly asking:
"Will that be paper or plastic?"

Forgive me for the intrusion...It's just that I've missed my nap today.

With highest regard and warmest fuzzies,

Yodabird J. Tunerfish
 
There's lots of nattering in others' posts above about "whatever happened to honor and pride?" Well, honor demands that you repay your investors, and most people take a certain amount of pride in making enough money to pay their employees, keep the factory floor swept, and having enough profit left over to keep the company a going concern for the forseeable future.

HOO-AH!

Oh. :what:

Excuse me. :eek:

Carry on...
 
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