Springfield vs. Smith Wesson 1911

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ugaarguy said:
The pistol adopted as the M1911 was chambered in .45 ACP. .38 Colt is a revolver cartridge. .38 ACP is a cartridge used later in 1911s by the AMU. The original trials specified .45 ACP because of the .38 Colt's poor performance in the Philippines.
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Actually, the 1911 was developed from a pistol that fired .38 ACP (or .38 automatic colt pistol, as I said earlier, obviously it was not developed from the colt revolver cartridge.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol
wikipedia said:
The M1911 was developed from earlier Colt designs firing rounds such as .38 ACP. The design beat out many other contenders during the government's selection period, during the late 1890's
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I have:

Stainless Colt Gold Cup Trophy
S&W 1911DK
SA 1911 Loaded Black stainless w/ factory $80.00 trigger job

I'll take the SA over both and definitely over the Smith. SA customer service is 5 star. Turn around is quick and accommodating.
My S&W41 is in for repair......has been 5 weeks so far.

How much is great customer service worth.
 
Actually, the 1911 was developed from a pistol that fired .38 ACP (or .38 automatic colt pistol, as I said earlier, obviously it was not developed from the colt revolver cartridge.).
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Developed from =/= same as. By the end of its development the pistol adopted as the M1911 was a far cry from the Colt M1900. The fact remains that the pistol designated M1911 was originally chambered in .45 ACP.
 
Demitrios said:
purebred says,

Thank you for the in-depth and informative post. Your argument was nothing short of pivotal.
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Nothing more to say got a colt 1911 made in 1952 per the serial #s and no problems
Got a colt AR 15 M4 no problems. Simple really, buy name brands that builds quality stuff.
 
Has anyone tried to compare the S&W and Kimber bits to see how close they are to each other, or the original Colt setup?
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Colt only used the Swartz safety for a very brief time, between the two world wars IIRC. Hilton Yam (proprietor or 10-8, and highly regarded 1911-smith) has stated a preference for no FP safety, but the Colt Series 80 system if you're required to have one because of state or local laws (or dept. policy if LE). He does a great job of explaining the timing issues of the Swartz system.

Mr. Yam also opines that a properly executed external extractor could solve the extractor tuning issues, but that results have thus far been too mixed to recommend it. The early SIG GSRs had many issues; Kimber switched to the EE, and then back to the IE; and the S&W Performance Center SW1911s have a much larger EE than the standard SW1911s, which has raised questions about just well executed & reliable even their EEs are.

http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html - it's a bit of a read, but full of good info.
 
A question about the external extractor.

Browning himself went to the external extractor several years later, with the High Power. Modern pistols such as Glock, HK, etc use external extractors with uber reliability.

Things change over time. Improvement do designs take place, and are implemented.

Could the external extractor actually be an improvement, but purists do not want to sway from the original design?
 
There were commercial Colt GMs in .38 Super as early as the 1920s. AFAIK, going back and forth between .38 Super and .45 ACP requires changing only the barrel, barrel bushing, extractor, and magazine. Everything still functions identically though.
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So if you don't consider the S&W a 1911 because of one part (extractor), how can you consider a 38 super which has mulitple different parts a 1911??

Could the external extractor actually be an improvement, but purists do not want to sway from the original design?
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of course! There is nothing wrong with being a purist though, it would just be nice if they would admit that is their motivation, and not claim that internal extractors are inherently better somehow.
 
some that don't consider an EE 1911 a 1911 is because they don't want to...well...where do you draw the line???...front cocking serrations???...front strap checkering???...short trigger???...double stack magazine???...undercut trigger guard???...flared and lowered ejection port???...magwell???...different magazine designs???...different sights???...ambi-safety???...beavertail or duckbill grip safety???...different calibers???...hmmmm??? ;)

Bill
 
With $1500 you could get both if you go used.

Personally, I'd pick the S&W over the Springfield. I don't mind the external extractor or the FLGR. I have two from S&W and both work great. I also have a Colt which also works great. It's hard to go wrong with the original.

If I was really going to spend that much money I'd be tempted to get a used Les Baer or Wilson Combat.
 
Browning himself went to the external extractor several years later, with the High Power. Modern pistols such as Glock, HK, etc use external extractors with uber reliability.
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The GP-35 was actually finished after JMB's death by FN enginer Dieudonne Saive, and it originally had an internal extractor.
Things change over time. Improvement do designs take place, and are implemented.

Could the external extractor actually be an improvement, but purists do not want to sway from the original design?
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Could it be? Yes. Has it been? No. As I noted above, industry giants Kimber & SIG-Sauer have tried the EE on 1911s, and failed: The jury is still out on the S&W EE on their SW1911.
So if you don't consider the S&W a 1911 because of one part (extractor), how can you consider a 38 super which has mulitple different parts a 1911??
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Simple. Those different parts only change caliber, not mechanical function. The external extractor is actually a minimum of three parts (extractor, extractor spring, and extractor retaining pin), and requires milling out part of the exterior of the slide. The EE changes how the gun functions. See my Glock example below.
of course! There is nothing wrong with being a purist though, it would just be nice if they would admit that is their motivation, and not claim that internal extractors are inherently better somehow.
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No company has yet executed an EE that performs better than an IE on the 1911. Even if the EEs are made to function just as well as IEs, they still require specialized tools to service, and add to the parts count of the gun. The internal extractor has some serious advantages, namely field expedient cleaning & replacement.
some that don't consider an EE 1911 a 1911 is because they don't want to...well...where do you draw the line???...front cocking serrations???...front strap checkering???...short trigger???...double stack magazine???...undercut trigger guard???...flared and lowered ejection port???...magwell???...different magazine designs???...different sights???...ambi-safety???...beavertail or duckbill grip safety???...different calibers???...hmmmm??
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Does the part change the mechanical function of the weapon, or is it a cosmetic change?

If I take a Glock 21, and put in a Glock 20 bbl, extractor, and magazine do I still have a Glock? If I put an aftermarket .400 CorBon bbl in a Glock 21 do I still have a Glock? If I manufacture a slide with an internal extractor, no striker block, and a 9x23 Win bbl that functions on a Glock 35 frame, and put it on a Glock 35, do I still have a Glock? If I put that hypothetical slide on a CCF Glock Raceframe do I have a Glock?
 
I would think External Extractor problems on the SW1911 would have come more to light after... what... 10 years?
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It's six years, which is still plenty of time. The larger extractor on the PC guns still causes me (and others) to question just how good S&W's standard EE is. The draw backs of the extremely high tension, extra parts, and specialized removal / installation tools remain, regardless of how well executed the extractor is. Even if it was field serviceable, would an external extractor still be a 1911?

My question remains: If I make a slide assembly with an internal extractor, and no striker block plunger, which functions on Glock frames, put it on a Glock frame, and call it a Glock; is it really a Glock?
 
S&W has been making 1911s for quite a while now. I own several. I specifically went with them after having multiple Kimber and Springfields with problems with internal extractors.

I have not had a problem with the S&W, and have not seen many reports of other people who have had problem. I am not sure why you think the jury is still out on the S&W extractor after all this time.

I think the external extractor of the S&W is an improvement.

All the hair splitting on what is and is not a 1911 is kind of silly.

Kimber and Sig had problems with external extractors, but their 1911s have also had a variety of other problems as well. Kimber switched to the external extractor because they were having problems with the internal extractor. If they were doing a good job with the internal extractor, they never would have changed. If a design is executed poorly, it will surely perform poorly, whether its internal or external.
 
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OK, buy a quality piece, there are MANY quality pieces aside from Colt. In fact one could argue, that for the money, you could an STI, Kimber, higher end Springfield, Dan Wesson, Fusion and possibly one or two others that IMHO are better than Colt.
 
If a design is executed poorly, it will surely perform poorly, whether its internal or external.
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Absolutely true. My point is that is the Springfield Armory extractor is crap (and it ain't the best), I can replace it with any number of extractors that are made of more appropriate material and that will work quite well. The same cannot be said of the S&W extractor, since their implementation is unique to them.
 
The same cannot be said of the S&W extractor, since their implementation is unique to them.
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that's true, but you could choose to buy a Performance Center 1911 to start with and have a superior external extractor which won't need to be replaced
 
that's true, but you could choose to buy a Performance Center 1911 to start with and have a superior external extractor which won't need to be replaced
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I agree... and to go further, I have 3 non Performance Center S&W 1911s, and their extractors have all worked 100 percent. The same cannot be said for the extractors on the Springfields I have owned. But I agree, it would be nice if it was easier to replace the S&W external extractor. Good thing is, so far I havent needed to.
 
that's true, but you could choose to buy a Performance Center 1911 to start with and have a superior external extractor which won't need to be replaced
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Sometime in the life of that pistol, the extractor will have to be replaced - especially if it's actually shot and not just bought to have.
 
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